Grammar Post

[paulrbarnard]

Try watching a foreign film on netflix with subtitles the lips and facial expressions say one thing the voice overs say another and the subtitles say something else

Especially fun when you understand the original language.

 

[JimJay]

One of the (many) things which get my goat is people who can't/won't spell correctly on the internet; I don't care how linguistically-challenged they may be when it comes to their native language, the magic "Search" buttons on most websites lack a "guess WTF this is supposed to mean" function, so any crumbs of useful information that someone of this ilk may have shared are soon lost forever.
As Galileo said, "I've never met a man so stupid that I couldn't learn something from him"; I agree with him but unfortunately, in these days of virtual beings, "meetings" aren't what they used to be....

 

[Jacob]

I'm usually more interested in what people are trying to say rather then how they say or spell it.
Wouldn't want to put them off by making sarky comments and moaning on!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

er....what HAD been written?
Feeling superior now!

Touché.

 

[JimJay]

Touché.

Not really: "what had bin written" would merit that, but it was obvious here that you'd simply made a typo. As possibly(?) the only person here to have refereed fencing matches, I'd riposte to that attack with "Off target!"

 

[Jacob]

Not really: "what had bin written" would merit that, but it was obvious here that you'd simply made a typo. As possibly(?) the only person here to have refereed fencing matches, I'd riposte to that attack with "Off target!"

View attachment 153414

No, I think typos are quite unforgivable.
Bad spelling and grammar have ignorance as an excuse, and marks should be given for trying.

 

[John Brown]

I imagine that you're largely correct about many people not liking to be corrected. However, when we communicate with others we're usually sending a host of ancillary messages which aren't necessarily visible or audible: tone of voice, facial expression, body language, choice of words etc. Sometimes those messages can be unclear, or misconstrued by the recipient. If we factor in the confusion resulting from the use of incorrect or ambiguous words, or the absence/misuse of punctuation, then we're just making communication harder - or sometimes impossible.

My take on the subject is not so much that people don't like to be corrected but more that they don't know the difference between "ignorant" and "stupid". We're all ignorant but only the stupid confuse the two, or don't welcome the opportunity to reduce their ignorance a little.

As for those who feel that getting the message across is the only thing that matters, while it's true that a good surgeon might well be able to accomplish wonders with a blunt cleaver, in the absence of a scalpel, I'd certainly prefer that he did it on someone else....

Suture yourself.

 

[TRITON]

Try watching a foreign film on netflix with subtitles the lips and facial expressions say one thing the voice overs say another and the subtitles say something else

When I was working in Romania, I saw a movie that was US/English, dubbed into Romanian, but with a Russian commentary, and Latvian subtitles.
It was the Russian commentary that was the weird bit.

 

[Jacob]

...... If we factor in the confusion resulting from the use of incorrect or ambiguous words, or the absence/misuse of punctuation, then we're just making communication harder - ......

But better than no message at all. It might even be something you need to know urgently!

My take on the subject is not so much that people don't like to be corrected but more that they don't know the difference between "ignorant" and "stupid". We're all ignorant but only the stupid confuse the two, or don't welcome the opportunity to reduce their ignorance a little.

Oh yes we are all extremely grateful when some tedious pedant points out all our little mistakes!

 

[JimJay]

No, I think typos are quite unforgivable.
Bad spelling and grammar have ignorance as an excuse, and marks should be given for trying.

That's like saying not knowing for sure that a gun will really kill someone is an excuse for murder. Poor spelling and grammar have no excuse, apart from those who aren't native speakers but are trying to improve their knowledge of the language in question. Ignorance in this context is entirely self-inflicted: if someone doesn't know how to drive a car, they have no business getting behind the wheel; if a native speaker doesn't know the niceties of the grammar of their own language, or how to spell or pronounce a word, they have no business using constructions they haven't yet grasped, or the word they can't handle properly.

However, the main problem here isn't ignorance, it's the arrogance of the ignorant, who see no reason to improve their command of their own language and expect others to struggle to understand them (and not to laugh in their faces while doing so). The SJWs among us are quick to complain about what they perceive as the "snobbery" of those who value language and make the effort to communicate clearly and articulately, but they have nothing to say about the inverse snobbery of the illiterate and lazy whose linguistic slovenliness is apparently some kind of badge of honour in the "class war" which will only be over when we're all losers. "Marks for trying" is presumably some kind of joke - you get marks for trying AND succeeding; the notion of "10% for getting your name right" is what started the race for the bottom that so many of us are striving to "win".

 

[JimJay]

But better than no message at all. It might even be something you need to know urgently!

Oh yes we are all extremely grateful when some tedious pedant points out all our little mistakes!

There are always people who are happy to roll in the mire, but I doubt that even you would welcome them into your home afterwards.

Everyone makes mistakes, but the sign of an intelligent person is that they do their best not to repeat them - or to set ignorance on a pedestal and worship it.

 

[thetyreman]

one thing I really do hate is when people correct me verbally, my father was and is a bit of an a-hole with that, some people are not just grammar nazi's they want to control the words you can or cannot speak as well.

 

[Agent_zed]

Poor spelling and grammar have no excuse, apart from those who aren't native speakers but are trying to improve their knowledge of the language in question

I can think of plenty of excuses for poor spelling and grammar. Some of the children in my child's class have parents who sell drugs and/or themselves, and have no interest in sitting down and teaching their children the finer points of the english language to their 5 year old. My child gets 15 spellings to learn and regularly get 15/15 (he enjoys reading and we play games and read together etc), one of the other kids gets 4 spellings and still doesn't get 4/4. Can't really blame that kid when he grows up and can't write properly. Not a whole lot you can do about it sadly as it takes more than just school to teach a child.

 

[Jacob]

There are always people who are happy to roll in the mire, but I doubt that even you would welcome them into your home afterwards.

Bad spellers are welcome here!

 

[Jacob]

I can think of plenty of excuses for poor spelling and grammar. Some of the children in my child's class have parents who sell drugs and/or themselves, and have no interest in sitting down and teaching their children the finer points of the english language to their 5 year old.

You seem to know some intimate details of their lives? Do you check their children's spelling too?
PS where should the apostrophe go in "childrens"? Does anybody know? Or care?

 

[Agent_zed]

You seem to know some intimate details of their lives? Do you check their children's spelling too?
PS where should the apostrophe go in "childrens"? Does anybody know?

not really intimate when they are smoking a joint walking their kid to school (some of the kids bags have to be left outside as they stink too much of weed), or seen selling drugs around town, or their pregnant GF turns up to school with a blackeye. Strangely enough I take an interest in my kids school and town.

Would you prefer everyone turns a blind eye?

 

[Jacob]

not really intimate when they are smoking a joint walking their kid to school (some of the kids bags have to be left outside as they stink too much of weed), or seen selling drugs around town, or their pregnant GF turns up to school with a blackeye. Strangely enough I take an interest in my kids school and town.

Good job they get their kids to school then.
I think you are going a bit off topic. Drugs and prostitution aren't that closely associated with poor spelling. I know some very posh types whose kids can't spell

Would you prefer everyone turns a blind eye?

er... yes, in principle.
n.b. should be "Would you prefer everyone to turn a blind eye?" Don't want to be pedantic but it's a slippery slope!

 

[Thingybob]

Touché.

Phil touchy is spelt with a y

 

[Stan]

..... "Marks for trying" is presumably some kind of joke - you get marks for trying AND succeeding; the notion of "10% for getting your name right" is what started the race for the bottom that so many of us are striving to "win".

In the words of the great Master Yoda:

Do, or do not. There is no "try".

 

[Molynoox]

It's interesting to me that you pick something like guitar music as an example of a structured and rigid format. It really isn't. Most guitarists will change what they play in different settings and whenever there mood changes. Loads of videos on 'how to play X properly' and they will look through videos of live performances and show you the numerous different ways the guitarist plays the same song. But 99% of people won't even notice.

If I played sweet child of mine and missed a few notes in the solo you'd still know what I was playing, same as missing a few commas in a sentence. I guess if I was playing in an orchestra then missing a note would be a problem as it would put the other musicians off their part. Which I guess is akin to it not being a problem missing a few commas on a forum post but it potentially causing an issue on a court document or police report.

Haha we could probably debate this for hours I've honestly never thought about it before so it's interesting for me.

I don't disagree with anything you have said. That's my polite way of saying you didn't paraphrase my sentiments successfully
It's okay though, I'll take the blame for that one - I'm often clear in my head but then get misunderstood... something to do with being neuro diverse probably.

I used guitar as I was responding to somebody else and I was riffing off that, but here is another example that might be better:

• An engineer uses a pencil and paper to design a component which somebody then uses to make a component. The medium, the pencil and paper, has utility, but it isn't the end result. The component is. Once we have the component we can throw the drawing away. And we do.
• An artist uses a pencil and paper to draw a portrait. It has no utility, other than to look good. You cannot throw it in the bin once you have drawn it, otherwise you have nothing. It's sort of at the end of the chain already, whereas the technical drawing was just part of the journey
• Rembrand may be able to make a techy drawing look great, but the component wouldn't be any more accurate once it's made. In this example rembrand is adding the commas but nobody cares.
• The pencil and paper used to draw the techy drawing is equivalent to how I use words on forums - a stepping stone to achieving understanding.

I love rembrand and Monet, but they can't draw a driveshaft any better than Gordon Murray.

I love Andy McNabb and Stephen fry but they can't explain quantum locking to me with any more clarity than some random dude on physics forums.com smashing out 100 words a minute and using zero commas, full stops or even sentences

I'm probably exaggerating here a little, and much of this is I expect simply laziness on my part; I just can't be bothered with grammar. Or spelling for that matter

Martin