Are there really people this uneducated?

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I have to wonder what experiences most of you are basing much of the nonsense that has been posted. I have two children, one about to take GCSE's next year and the older her A levels (and A2's).

They both fully understand Log's, no they don't use printed tables but they know what they are and how to use them. They have an excellent base knowledge of Maths, English, Sciences, Modern Languages and the Arts. I wish to god that I had the education they are getting. I was at a hideous secondary modern that really did not give a pineapple about me or anyone else at the school. I left with a handful of O levels and CSE's mostly learnt by rote or by beatings.

The current education my kids get (at a comprehensive) is outstanding and I am proud to have schools in my area that can do this. People love to moan, many of them with no kids or basing on what they are told to believe in the Daily Fail or Grauniad.

There are thousands of motivated and engaged kids out there, give them a break and a chance to succeed in what ever they do.
 
You are lucky with your children's school, I am lucky with mine. My daughter got 7 x A's, 5 x B's and a C at GCSE, an A*, an A and a B at a A level, and is in the third year of an honours degree at a top ten University - and apart from her own bloody hard work she has a lot to thank her teachers for. The boy's got B's at chemistry and biology a year early. The secondary school was a shambles up to when an exceptional headmaster took over, unfortunately their junior school has gone the in the opposite direction. Would you like to point out what you consider to be nonsense and why? I would imagine what you consider nonsense is far from nonsense to the person who posted it.
 
cutting42":2bzsyd5i said:
I have to wonder what experiences most of you are basing much of the nonsense that has been posted. I have two children, one about to take GCSE's next year and the older her A levels (and A2's).

They both fully understand Log's, no they don't use printed tables but they know what they are and how to use them. They have an excellent base knowledge of Maths, English, Sciences, Modern Languages and the Arts. I wish to god that I had the education they are getting. I was at a hideous secondary modern that really did not give a pineapple about me or anyone else at the school. I left with a handful of O levels and CSE's mostly learnt by rote or by beatings.

The current education my kids get (at a comprehensive) is outstanding and I am proud to have schools in my area that can do this. People love to moan, many of them with no kids or basing on what they are told to believe in the Daily Fail or Grauniad.

There are thousands of motivated and engaged kids out there, give them a break and a chance to succeed in what ever they do.
Yes the secondary moderns were terribly divisive; a deliberate decision to give the majority an inferior education. Though of course many succeeded in spite of this and there were a lot of committed teachers doing a good job. It's amazing that the government are contemplating turning the clock back again - a lot of people who support the grammar school idea don't seem to twig that it might be their own kids who won't be given a break.
 
I find some of the views expressed in this thread interesting. Lots of talk about old school learning tables etc. I get where those views are coming from but you're thinking in the 60's. Today we really don't need our children to know what 6x7 is. You may be thinking that's a ridiculous statement, but let me explain.

Kids don't need to know this stuff off of their head, this day and age they have access to that answer in their pocket it's called their phone. Or they have a computer etc. Equally who can tell me what 1122 x 7831 is, using only mental arithmetic? Not many, and that proves my point, it's not about knowing the answer, it's about knowing how to solve the problem.

We have access to a world of information that we have never had before. We need to be educating our children so that they know how to access that information and evaluate it and use it. We have devices that are great for doing maths and robots for repetitive tasks. What we need are people who can solve problems, people who can work out the best way to do things.
 
"Yes the secondary moderns were terribly divisive; a deliberate decision to give the majority an inferior education."
Jacob, we would be fools if we did not admit there were many things wrong with secondary moderns, but to maintain they were bad intentionally is idiocy.

"A lot of people who support the grammar school idea don't seem to twig that it might be their own kids who won't be given a break."

And a lot of people who don't don't seem to twig that it might be their own kids who will be given a break.

Making one school better doesn't need to mean making another worse.
 
phil.p":3zyho9ej said:
....but to maintain they were bad intentionally is idiocy.
They were "less good" intentionally, which amounts to the same thing
...


Making one school better doesn't need to mean making another worse.
Of course it does.
It's relative not absolute. It means one set of kids will get a lower quality of education with less investment, as compared to another, unless they convert them all to "grammar" schools equally (could call them "comprehensive" schools?). It's divisive and is about maintaining privilege.
 
Stu - Kids don't need to know this stuff off of their head, this day and age they have access to that answer in their pocket it's called their phone. Or they have a computer etc.

Yes, but if they have absolutely no idea of mental arithmetic they will have no idea when they have made a mistake. Of course their phone, computer or calculator won't - but they can and will.
As my neighbour used to tell me, it wasn't unusual for one of his pupils to write that 40 x 40 was 16000 - because they were so reliant on machines, they no longer had the ability to quickly look and think hang on, that doesn't look quite right. Similarly, they used to get living room floors of 150 square metres, and so on. If questioned the answer was always the same - that's the answer the computer or calculator gave, it must be right.

Jacob - if we are talking of differing investment, that's another discussion. Why have first class schools in Cornwall less income per capita than anywhere else in the Country?
If one school is 99% percent perfect you cannot say that another at 98% is made worse intentionally because it might be 99% if the other didn't exist.
 
You are a bit confused! You are not alone - a lot of people have their heads in the sand in a similar way.
If the grammar school idea is to give a selected group a better education it also means by sheer logic that the unselected remainder will get a worse one.
If it's about an appropriate education to suit a child's needs it shouldn't be decided by one exam for life at age 11 - it should be an on going process for life, with all doors equally open to all
 
Out of curiosity -both my children went to a good big comprehensive. Barring subjects that are basically relatively unimportant, they were in top sets, with six or seven sets to a year. They were in a different part of the school, in different rooms with different teachers - so what's the gain for the pupils from being together? On a day to day basis, they only only had contact with their own groups - there might be an economic argument for one large school, but that's it, any thoughts of pupils having role models and getting encouragement from their betters (which for some peculiar reason is a common belief) is pie in the sky thinking. Some people believe in some form of educational osmosis - that if a slow learning child sits next to a quick learning one, he'll get quicker. He might, from cheating - but that's it.
Not at all confused, by the way. :D
 
phil.p":fnyhlh96 said:
Out of curiosity -both my children went to a good big comprehensive. Barring subjects that are basically relatively unimportant, they were in top sets, with six or seven sets to a year. They were in a different part of the school, in different rooms with different teachers - so what's the gain for the pupils from being together? ....
Permits movement through the levels according to ability and need.
The grammar/secondary modern cut off was a boundary which very few could cross - nobody was sent down, a tiny number rose up (13+ exam). Your kids might have failed the 11 plus (it's possible however improbable you think it it) and would be condemned for life to a worse education and be marked for life at age 11 as inferior.
 
I'm of the view that most people are as thick as a whale omelette. It's quite refreshing when I'm occasionally proven wrong. :-D
 
DiscoStu":1xwjikst said:
Kids don't need to know this stuff off of their head, this day and age they have access to that answer in their pocket it's called their phone. Or they have a computer etc. Equally who can tell me what 1122 x 7831 is, using only mental arithmetic? Not many, and that proves my point, it's not about knowing the answer, it's about knowing how to solve the problem.
This isn't true. I'm not picking a fight here but children DO need mental arithmetic, and the better it is the more useful. Of course it's perfectly OK to use a calculator (in school, in exams, and so on), but the issue of decimal drift (putting the point in the wrong place and mucking up by orders of magnitude) has already been mentioned above. It's important that people can work out roughly before they get a precise result from a machine, as a sanity check.

Similarly with language, spelling is very useful, as is grammar, because it means you express ideas unambiguously. Commas change meaning, for example.
We have access to a world of information that we have never had before. We need to be educating our children so that they know how to access that information and evaluate it and use it. We have devices that are great for doing maths and robots for repetitive tasks. What we need are people who can solve problems, people who can work out the best way to do things.
They won't do this, and in my experience can't do this, unless they develop the mental agility to calculate in their heads. It isn't innate. It has to be learned and, like any skill, practiced.

Ask my own children, who all went to what were considered good schools in the city (excellent OSTED ratings, consistently), if they now think dad was old-fashioned and anal about their spelling, punctuation and grammar, and silly to try to teach them simple rules (which the schools weren't doing). They've needed that stuff since, and two of them have discovered that they have difficulty explaining complex ideas at degree level. Language - vocab. and grammar - is essential. In the computer industry that's been especially obvious. You can only frame a concept, or a problem to solve, if you have the language to do it.

The other issue is that schools do have a role in calibrating children's expectations of the adult world. In almost all important jobs you can't afford to be slapdash, you do have to attend to detail, you must be precise and exact. And you have to do this all day long, every workday. Children no longer come out of the education system appreciating this, and higher education has very often replaced high standards with an obsession to create a "level" playing field for the 'underpriveleged'. It's a nice idea, but it was Jesus who said, "The poor are always with you." His meaning, I think, was that you will never remove all the world's inequalities, and other things may have a higher priority (he was far from uncharitable, so I'm not making a case for the Trump view of the world!).

I am convinced the three things children need to leave school with are simply these:

1. a set of core mental skills, in reasoning, arithmetic and language (English),
2. an appreciation that the adult world they're joining relies on precision and detail, which will be expected of them, too,
3. an enthusiasm and ability to learn whatever specialisms they need.

I agree that information is freely available, more so than ever before, but children by and large aren't leaving school with the critical skills to value it. You can often see evidence of this in the nonsense that bubbles up to popularity on the web (Internet "memes"?).

What colours were in that badly-snapped stripey dress of last year? The answer was simple - check the colour of the pixels! If one did, the answer was unambiguous, but it didn't stop supposed centres of excellence like the BBC wasting editorial space on it, even on Radio 4 news programmes. Did we learn anything about colour perception? Nope, nothing at all. Yet it was a "mystery" that evidently captivated many. I love optical illusions - Escher, for example - but this definitely was just an example of the gullible being led by the stupid (and depressing to discover where some of the stupid have ended up).

For other good examples read the Huffington Post! It's not the political views I object to but the pathetically weak arguments and subjectivity presented as fact. Of course they can publish/promote whomsoever they wish on their site. What depresses me is the popularity the Huffpost has - apparently people don't read it (as I largely do) for a dose of ironic humour. Again, its an example of a general inability to exercise judgement, which one hopes might have been developed in school.

At a more serious level, you see dreadfully weak thought being applid to really big and expensive policy decisions: wind farms, sending humans to Mars, or at a trivial level, bicycle lanes and 20MPH zones in cities.

To pick just one of those, a Martian expedition: we've had experiments on the psychological effects of a long space flight, but no consideration of the (probably fatal) radiation belts astronauts will travel through, and solar wind exposure on the Martian surface (as Mars doesn't have a strong enough magnetic field). You can't just clad a spacecraft in lead, as the one thing that's hard/expensive to do is lift mass into space! Then there's ecosystem issues: it's infeasible to take all the food a manned mission would require, but might you grow it there? The biosphere of Earth is staggeringly complex - plants don't just grow in soil, they interact with the soil's ecosystem. So which microbes would you transport to mars, which would you leave behind, and how would you keep both plants and humans healthy? And that's assuming you might use the Martian soil in the first place. What do you do about poisonous trace elements (poisonous either to plants, or humans - it doesn't matter which!). None of this really depends on Elon Musk's ability to land a rocket the rght way up on a barge.

My point - It's wonderfully romantinc, but it simply ain't gonna happen. There are no magic bullets for this stuff. The popular science press may be full of guff about "missions to Mars", but it's no nearer reality than it was in Jules Verne's day. Yet nobody is calling out the Emperor's tailors...

... so what are we educating people to do or be, even in our research institutions? Lack of mental arithmetic seems to be just the tip of an iceberg of incompetence in modern life.

E. (Probably just grumpy this morning at having to climb scaffolding in the wet to clean uPVC window frames).
 
NazNomad":1gcpm2yu said:
I'm of the view that most people are as thick as a whale omelette.
That is the expression of the week -- good until at least Thursday, I'd say :)

It's quite refreshing (but very rare) when I'm occasionally proven wrong. :-D
Felt the need to tweak the second bit slightly - it's going to be that sort of day - hope you don't mind.

E.
 
One of the best comments was from a junior school head writing in The Times a few years ago, commenting on present day education. He said we have nothing to worry about concerning the intelligence of today's children - he had asked thirty eight year olds if they knew the name of the prime minister and got twenty eight yeses and two noes. :D
 
A professor of mathematics was driving past an institution for the mentally insane when one of the wheels from his car fell off. He was scratching his head wondering how to get going again when a patient gave him this advice: "Take one nut off each of the other wheels to fasten the wheel you have lost."
The professor replied : "my but you are clever." To which the patient replied: " I may be mad but I am not stupid."
 
Eric The Viking":3du203x0 said:
......
... so what are we educating people to do or be, ....
Education is about empowering people so that they can both take control of their own lives, contribute more to society, make more rational decisions when called on to vote etc.
It's "investment in human capital" - keeping people mentally and physically in good nick is good for all of us.
 
Just one point regarding the grammar school comments. I'm not sure I have a particularly strong view as to whether or not it's a good idea, however I don't think the by having a grammar school you end up with a two tier system comment is true. We need a reality check here. Some children are more academically gifted than others. Schools already stream students based on ability surely the grammar system is the same thing. Just because a school teaches children with a lower academic ability doesn't make it a bad school or any less capable of educating children than any other school it just means it is educating children of a lower academic ability. I think it could be a huge benefit to children. There is no point in trying to teach a child Fourier transform functions if they are never going to understand it and if they would be better learning how to plumb in a sink.

Now to put some personal perspective on this I have three children, one who is academically ok and is doing well at school. She should get all C's and above in GCSE. I have one who has severe dyslexia and struggles hugely academically and I have one who is likely to go to red brick university and get a 1st. Is the same school right for all of them? Does my daughter with her learning difficulties need to go to a grammar school where they will be very much in favour of a pure academic route? Maybe just maybe my daughter may thrive in an environment where vocational skills are valued and where she is given the skills that are right for her and will equip her to find an appropriate job outside of School.

If we don't teach people at the right level for them then we end up with the following situation.

A large part of the class can't understand what is being taught and will become frustrated and distraught. Another large part of the class will be bored and unchallenged. Only the middle of the class will probably benefit. It's important that children are challenged but they need to be challenged at the right level, what is a huge challenge for some is mundane for others.

I really do think we shouldn't be trying to make people something that they are not.

I used to work with a CEO who had a 1st in maths from Cambridge and was a very intelligent educated man. However ask him to put up a shelf or change a wheel and you're asking for trouble. Actually as I type this I remember that the wheel example is a perfect example. He did once change the wheel on his wife's car and it came off the following day. He'd only tightened the nuts finger tight, and meant to tighten them properly but forgot.

Oh and his communication skills were horrific, his desk was just full of paper and he used to wear clothes with holes in. Not bad for a multi millionaire.
 
DiscoStu":2l3xozp6 said:
..... Is the same school right for all of them? .....
Yes of course it is (or should be).
They will have different needs as they progress and a school has to cover all fronts. Streaming them at age 11 is much too soon and too inflexible - children develop at different rates.
My son is also dyslexic and would have failed the 11 plus but luckily he went to the local comprehensive and was not demoted into a second rate school. With the help of computers and sensible teachers he ended up with an upper2nd and an MA is now the highest qualified person in the whole family. So far that is; there's a PhD on the way from daughter who went to the same school.
They've had posh friends over the years who went to grammar or private schools but didn't do half as well.
The worst performing schools of all seem to be the small private ones - in spite of the wealth of the parents, the uniforms, discipline and other nonsense. People pay a lot of money to keep their kids from mixing with riff raff like my lot, but they are the losers. They tend to be underfunded and don't have the facilities - especially the pricier kit for science and technology - and they don't attract the talent - what intelligent teacher would want to work in a school for which the raison d'etre is mere snobbery?
 
I find it really offensive to teachers that people would say that a non grammar school is a second rate school. I have a friend who is a teacher. She teaches maths. She prefers to teacher the lower set classes as she feels she makes mor rod an impact and a greater difference. She also moved from a high end high achieving school to an inner city school where results were far lower, because she felt she could make more of a difference. That doesn't sound like a second rate teacher to me. To class on a non grammar school as second rate is wholly unfair to the staff and children that go there. Not all children are academically gifted. We all have our own skills and abilities and it's far better to play to our strengths. I'm not suggesting that a non grammar school shouldn't teach maths etc but teach it at a level where pupils will grow and gain from that and not be left behind. Educating children is not about getting A's it's about children developing and growing in their ability. Unfortunately we don't seem to be able to accept that not all children are going to get 10 A*.

In fact I wonder how many people know that it is actually impossible for all children to get A*?

How many people know that the amount of A* etc are the same percentage each year? For example you take an exam in 2015 and get 75/100 and you get an A. What would you get if you did the same exam in 2016 or 2014 and got the same 75 out of 100?

The answer might be that you get an A but it might be an A* or B it depends on how many people have got above 75 and how many below.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
DiscoStu":2pnyz0jt said:
I find it really offensive to teachers that people would say that a non grammar school is a second rate school.....k
There are some brilliant teachers working at all levels whatever the type of school.
Not the teachers' fault that secondary moderns were designed and intended as second rate and cheaper.
 
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