Bringing goods from the EU

[doctor Bob]

Trouble is no one seems to think it’s possible to have cross over opinions. This thread is very binary

 

[doctor Bob]

Well if everybody did that there'd be no need for Unions!
My grandfather worked as an engineer for Aristoc in Derbyshire (stocking makers). He remembered the general strike. He didn't have to strike because the unions recognised that Aristoc paid good wages and looked after their workers. It's very simple really.

Mine was a riveter on the Tyne shipbuilders. Unemployed for 4 years, he educated himself out of it. Ended up a public health inspector. Day he qualified they offered him his riveter job back. My grandmother made him refuse. Very proud of his roots

 

[sploo]

So what was going wrong then. Bad bosses, immigrants valuing their labour to low, people wanting cheap, exploitation of migrants. Surely it’s a combination of all factors. Bit too easy just to say racism

The reason for the problem existing (native workers' jobs moving to immigrants) is that there's always someone willing to cut corners in order to save a buck.

Why it's allowed to happen is, yes, a degree of racism (or xenophobia). At least, if "them in charge" couldn't point at the immigrants and say "he's stolen your job" then it would be a darn sight harder for those same individuals to deflect the blame away from themselves.

I dislike militant unions. I pay my guys for 5 days but they work 4 1/2 days. Just treat staff better than you want to be treated. Loyalty is important

Sadly that's not the norm in many workplaces. It absolutely works both ways; there are scumbag employers who want to squeeze every last drop out of their employees, and militant union guys who seem to care less about the workers' they claim to represent and more about "giving a fat cat a bloody nose".

 

[Rorschach]

At least, if "them in charge" couldn't point at the immigrants and say "he's stolen your job" then it would be a darn sight harder for those same individuals to deflect the blame away from themselves.

And now thanks to Brexit, they can't

 

[Droogs]

Oh yes they can. They can now bring in sub saharan africans who will do the job for half the cost of a pole or romanian would for the same amount of immigration hassle. So they win even more. I unfortuneately don think your friend will get his job back soon

edit adendum
Oh and the sub saharans are new essential workers and need to be let in as these employers can no longer entice and european nationals to come over and do the job let alone get their own mugs to do the job for the price they are now offering either

 

[sploo]

And now thanks to Brexit, they can't

So... simultaneously not tackling the heart of the problem, and also taking away freedom of movement from ourselves.

Oh, and the likelihood of course is that said companies will then simply move work to other (cheaper) regions, or in time just replace people with automation.

 

[MarkDennehy]

I'm a bit confused by how removing the legal protection of workers' rights while also "doing something" to limit unions will prevent immigrants taking your job if you're one of the majority who are just workers rather than business owners.
And I'm not convinced that chickenisation will resolve that confusion...

 

[Jake]

The aim of those steering Brexit has always been Singapore (hateful place). Entirely reliant on immigrant labour with zero rights.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

There are "three parties" to a "contract" - the employee ('ees), the employer ('ers), and the customer.

The customer holds the most power. If they don't buy the product of the 'ers and 'ees efforts, the 'ees and 'ers will soon not exist.

Most (not all) customers are driven by money. If 'ers don't respond they won't get the business. 'Ees are at liberty to take or leave the job - but most 'ees prefer jobs to unemloyment.

Creating restrictions which inhibit the 'ers is a balancing act. Too much 'ees protection will reduce employment or increase prices and/or imports. Too little and 'ees get all the pain.

Where we may be losing touch with reality is in the policy of using income as the basis for immigration.

This rewards immigrants with decent jobs (no problem with this) but potentially consigns our own citizens to the unfilled low paid jobs. We should spend more on training and education to improve their capabilities.

 

[Jacob]

....Where we may be losing touch with reality is in the policy of using income as the basis for immigration.

Absolutely. A massive disincentive to many as the risk of losing a job would involve deportation.
Completely bloody crazy anyway - we need low skilled workers too. They turn into higher skilled workers

........ unfilled low paid jobs. We should spend more on training and education to improve their capabilities.

And enforce minimum wages and proper terms and conditions - a level playing field, with some increased costs to the customer, fewer cowboy gang master ops, less exploitation of the vulnerable and no undercutting of others' wages. More power to the unions too.

 

[Jacob]

".....The volume of exports going through British ports to the EU fell by a staggering 68% last month compared with January last year,....."
Just the start apparently, expected to get worse.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...e-as-exports-to-eu-slashed-by-68-since-brexit

 

[Blackswanwood]

I do find some of the underlying views that we are heading towards the UK being a country that discards workers rights through deregulation perplexing.

We have elections every five years which all politicians know means they risk losing their job if they annoy the electorate. Some regulation arguably would benefit from changing albeit in some cases this is down to our past gold plating of EU regulation rather than the EU regulation itself.

I voted Remain and would not dispute that we’ve thrown the baby out with the bath water. The reason the vote went the way it did is an amalgam of a range of factors however it’s done. I don’t buy that the electorate are dim And claiming such is a sure sign of a bad loser. There are opportunities that come from not being a member of the EU and it’s far healthier, again imho, to focus on them.

In or out of the EU we have a lot to be grateful for living in the UK.

 

[John Brown]

It hasn't affected me yet, we have only been out for 5 weeks! Give it chance man.
Ending of free movement will allow us to control which kinds of professions are allowed to migrate here protecting jobs in industries which are already well staffed. That in turn will help (not solve, it needs more than just that) the housing crisis that is preventing me and my friends and family from being able to afford to buy a house.

I am very pro immigration, as long as it is controlled and we get the right kinds of people come here, just like those xenophobic Australians do. (That xenophobic bit was a joke for humourless)

Only been out for five weeks, but had four and a half years to prepare.

 

[Rorschach]

Only been out for five weeks, but had four and a half years to prepare.

Ok well I haven't seen any changes good or bad in the last 4.5 years.

 

[sploo]

We have elections every five years which all politicians know means they risk losing their job if they annoy the electorate.

They risk losing their job if the media the people read tells them they should be annoyed. That's the killer issue.

I get a variety of media links pop up on my phone, and looking through the headlines from, say, The Express, someone who got their world view only from that source would be basically living in a parallel universe.

 

[sploo]

Ok well I haven't seen any changes good or bad in the last 4.5 years.

Significant rises in reported racism, huge damage to the UK's standing on the world stage, loss of joint funding in medical and research fields, the country spending more on preparations than our entire EU membership costs since we joined. All of those "trivial" and minor things happened before we even fully left.

Have you only been reading The Express?

 

[RobinBHM]

We have elections every five years which all politicians know means they risk losing their job if they annoy the electorate. Some regulation arguably would benefit from changing albeit in some cases this is down to our past gold plating of EU regulation rather than the EU regulation itself

In theory, I agree.
But democracy is rather illusory in this country.

Billionaires own the media, billionaires donate to the government.
US libertarian groups fund Brexit propaganda sites who in turn lobby MPs

current politicians are driven by vested self interest.


The electorate can be persuaded to vote against their best interests.....Brexit damage will be slow and unnoticed by most of the public. A boiling frog doesn't notice till it's too late.

FPTP means 90% of the electorate have no say.

 

[RobinBHM]

Ok well I haven't seen any changes good or bad in the last 4.5 years.

You won't see them if you don't look for them.

 

[Rorschach]

You won't see them if you don't look for them.

If you gotta go look for it, maybe it isn't there?

 

[doctor Bob]

So now the gang are saying it’s not a proper democracy ....... dear oh dear, maybe we should switch to the eu version where just one nominee is put forward and she still just scrapped in.
Maybe an African style democracy