What is David Charlesworth using?

[Jacob]

I don't form a single rounded bevel like Jacob. I register the primary bevel on the stone then raise the angle a few degrees to form a separate secondary bevel. To me after some persiverance it's now very simple and quick with excellent results.

John

I was doing the same until I accidentally discovered the virtue of a rounded bevel - you start at 30º for the edge and then dip the handle a touch as you go - so you don't need to bother about the angle and can put as much force on it as you can. Much faster and even makes coarse grinding big chips out of wide blades viable on a stone. I just did a 2" Marples firmer with a big chip out of it, to check that I'm not deluded! No prob. I'd do it with power normally, but wouldn't be stuck if out on site. Very useful to be able to do.
Narrow chisels never need grinding - the round bevel honing does it all.
NB it's only very slightly rounded, you'd hardly notice.

 

[screwpainting]

A tiler would Jacob 8)

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Am I the only person here who doesn't give a flying f... how anyone else sharpens their tools? :lol:

 

[skelph]

Am I the only person here who doesn't give a flying f... how anyone else sharpens their tools?

Nope! My attitude to this is - each to his own! If it works for you, carry on doing it. If you want to try someone else's method go ahead and if you don't like that method go back to what you are comfortable with.

 

[ED65]

They are now very rare because not many were sold.

And yet, somehow, against all the odd, that one basic design was in continuous production for over a century!

I'm sure you'll be along shortly with some 'reasoning' to explain how a tool can be popular enough to remain on sale for longer than any of us have been alive and yet still, magically, not many were sold. But as for me, I'm done.

 

[Tasky]

Why? Can't you just check with a square?

I did. That's how I knew which ones weren't square.
The jig was so I could sharpen them into square, and ensure that when I came to hand-sharpen I wasn't starting off skewed... otherwise it'd never have worked.

For most purposes a camber is preferable, very few plane scenarios need a square edge

Not square in that plane - I mean getting the cutting edge going at a perpendicular 90º to the left and right side of the iron!!

It's a mystery then that it wasn't difficult in the past and nobody 'never' got it.

Some never did - They're the ones who failed their apprenticeships and became things like milkman and gardeners and tailors instead of woodworkers.
Me, I'm not an apprentice, nor do I have anyone to teach me, nor is this anything more than a hobby. I therefore have to take other measures to ensure I don't pineapple it up, while I'm learning the skill.

I use a guide, does that make me a hybrid?

Well, people here did warn me you could sometimes be a bit of a Prius...

 

[Ttrees]

Your irons are parallel ???

 

[Tasky]

Your irons are parallel ???

Why should/would they not be?

 

[Ttrees]

Just from my experience, have I found vintage irons not to be parallel in their width.
How did I find this out, you might ask.. from a honing guide.
My cheap honing guide lost the retaining washer and the wheel went a bit wonky, not sure if this would have happened anyways though...
I'm guessing so.
I put it aside because it wouldn't give a straight edge, needed for shooting and a breath of camber for tearout elimination
Contrary to whats mentioned previously, I was getting lovely cambers with the Eclipse knockoff.

Do you folks who use these guides have a blank with a marked line, or another block affixed to give a quick reference?
If so, do you keep setting it away further from the line/block with proceeding honings?
I was finding it took me like a half an hour to get a burr on the back, if I set the distance the same during succeeding honings on a washita.
This led me to buying a DMD (cheap 2 quid hone) 400 grit, but it was a bit too short, and I didn't want to affix these thin hones to anything...

I still will keep the honing guide as I get dizzy sometimes...I remember more than one occasion where I felt like I was levitating when using the guide..
Trying to keep my hands down on the bench...a funny experience.

Another thing I find is I have no bother keeping the stone flat using a honing guide...just use the whole stone...no problem!

Best advice I can give for freehand is don't have the iron held in the same way as you would with a honing guide.
Hold the iron on its side so you can easily judge the 30(ish) angle like David Weaver, Bill Carter, Frank Klausz.. shows...
Not what Cosman shows, which is orientating it the same way as a honing guide does.
Keep the stone higher than your bench, and brace your stomach against the surface
Hone along the edge sidewards in a slicing motion in line with the stone,
It will give nice witness marks when your there too!

Oh I forgot to mention, make sure you have a way to quickly get back to your primary bevels!!!!
Trying to learn by hand should be done on a freshly relieved primary bevel , with just a millimeter or less, of a previously honed
shiny bevel left.

The bench grinder is a godsend regardless of which way you choose...
I am way too mean to be changing the abrasives out on the 6" wide belt sander, and it requires a lot more space than the grinder...
Yes the linishers are compact too, but a belt sander is a lot more versatile.
I suppose one could get away with a cheap hand held belt sander upside down instead, not on my tool list though

Tom

 

[Bm101]

Your irons are parallel ???

I might paint that on a banner and take it to the Pride festival going on at Trafalgar Square in town tomorrow. That should confuse a few people. Might add a secondary quote about how I have wood for sale. Be back in time for the England game with any luck. Perhaps not. Still twenty quid is twenty quid eh?
Was the op asking about bevel gauge all the time and not honing guides God I hope so lol after 5 odd pages of jig arguments. Lol.
http://richardkell.co.uk/handtoolsECom.htm
Here's one.

 

[Tasky]

Just from my experience, have I found vintage irons not to be parallel in their width.
They might be eeeeeeeeeeeeever so slightly out, but all of them look pretty parallel to me.
I might even measure them over the weekend, just to see.

But either way, the cutting edge still wants to be square-on to the length of the iron, and you wouldn't have needed a square to see how far mine was out.

My cheap honing guide lost the retaining washer and the wheel went a bit wonky, not sure if this would have happened anyways though...

And you don't think that might be what caused your iron to go, or just appear to be, a bit on the squiffy side?

 

[Ttrees]

Wear will happen regardless of wheather or not the retaining washer is in place.
Infact if you wish to use a cambered iron you will be leaning on the wheel anyways.
I just kept my finger against it so it stayed where its supposed to.
A new bearing made of harder material might be the solution, but the shaft gets worn also.

Can you actually, say draw a pencil line on the iron from each side and for them to be parallel?
Talking about regular vintage irons, not sure if modern irons are parallel
Tom

 

[Jacob]

They are now very rare because not many were sold.

And yet, somehow, against all the odd, that one basic design was in continuous production for over a century!

Which basic design was that, and how many were sold?
Are you saying that nearly everybody has been using sharpening jigs (just like nowadays) for a century or more?
Why don't why turn up in tool collections or sales? Why do they not get mentioned in any of the old books?

 

[Jacob]

Just from my experience, have I found vintage irons not to be parallel in their width.
How did I find this out, you might ask.. from a honing guide.

Couldn't you tell by just looking at them?

.....
Best advice I can give for freehand is don't have the iron held in the same way as you would with a honing guide...

Er - why not? If you hold it sideways you can't get the pressure for a fast grind and you can't use the whole surface of the stone for each stroke.

Basically if you want to get into freehand honing you have to forget everything you've learned from "David Weaver, Bill Carter, Frank Klausz, Cosman", (whoever they are) our Dave, and the whole army of modern sharpeners, several tons of books and mags, thousands of videos, hundreds of dodgy gadget dealers ("tool suppliers").
No jigs and gadgets, no micro/primary/secondary bevels, no lapping, no prepping, no flattening, no polishing, no wet n dry, no glass/granite plates - er what have I missed? "Locking" the arms (whatever that is, mine won't lock)? Jewellers rouge? Lipstick? High heels?

You need to know only about the burr and the 30º.

Imagine that you have just got to rough grind a bevel on the end of a bit of iron at an acute angle, but quickly, on a stone, by hand. Imagine it's a race. You'd roll up your sleeves and get stuck in. No jigs, not sideways, just simple, energetically and fast as poss.
To do this as 'sharpening' the only difference is that you carefully start the grind at 30º as near as you can judge and dip it as you go to slightly round it. Put some welly into it, wait for the burr, turn it over flat and remove the burr.

It's that simple, its fast, easy, repeatable. And you can very easily keep your edge keen by touching it up the same way, whilst on the job. About as simple as sharpening a pencil

 

[Racers]

Their are only two ways of doing something, Jacobs way and the wrong way.

Pete

 

[Ttrees]

Just from my experience, have I found vintage irons not to be parallel in their width.
How did I find this out, you might ask.. from a honing guide.

I should have said I found this out this to be a problem
I do forget how specific you are with your words Jacob
Best advice I can give for freehand is don't have the iron held in the same way as you would with a honing guide..

Agreed with you on the fast grind part, but in my experience (learners experience), which you may have forgotten... for me it leads
to failure because I don't have the muscle memory to tackle sharpening like that, and have to rely partly on sight, but more so,
the ability to rest the whole edge lenghtwise on the stone to avoid tipping, which helps me tremendously, as in ...
I can avoid excessive wrist movment

Basically if you want to get into freehand honing you have to forget everything you've learned from David Weaver, Bill Carter, Frank Klausz, Cosman, our Dave, and the whole army of modern sharpeners.

Not buying this part Jacob, as in either your having us on, or your too stubborn to watch any of the videos,
I wont believe that you spend time on this forum, but won't watch a wee video, or two.

No jigs and gadgets, no micro/primary/secondary bevels, no lapping, no prepping, no flattening, no polishing, no wet n dry, no glass/granite plates - er what have I missed? "Locking" the arms (whatever that is, mine won't lock)? Jewellers rouge? Lipstick? High heels?

You need to know only about the burr and the 30º.

Imagine that you have just got to rough grind a bevel on the end of a bit of iron at an acute angle, but quickly, on a stone, by hand. Imagine it's a race. You'd roll up your sleeves and get stuck in. No jigs, not sideways, just simple, energetically and fast as poss.
To do this as 'sharpening' the only difference is that you carefully start the grind at 30º as near as you can judge and dip it as you go to slightly round it. Put some welly into it, wait for the burr, turn it over flat and remove the burr.

It's that simple, its fast, easy, repeatable. And you can very easily keep your edge keen by touching it up the same way, whilst on the job. About as simple as sharpening a pencil

Well...
No flattening of the back/face/flat of the edge of a plane iron, and you can't set the cap iron to be effective,
and if its non polished, the edge will blunt instantly for me for fine work, working with irokos tough wild grain.
I Dont know what you use for the final touch, but if I use a strop it will be a fragile edge, no good for me...
unless I'm in the metal workshop.
I cant imagine that you could get that good of an edge if the back is not polished..

That said, maybe autosol on a flat piece of iroko isn't the best for finishing off the bevel side of a chisel ...either that, or its contaminated with the minute amount of metal I work in the woodshop.
Just what I've experienced, maybe I need to make a new strop or buy some fancy steel chisels

Apologies for the lame quoting effort, I will have to learn how to do this properly on youtube sometime.

Tom

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I see posting my hoary old chestnut earlier didn't work to prevent the circular and pointless bickering on this sadly wearisome subject. There must surely be a graveyard somewhere to bury once and for all, plus forever for good measure, all participants in these never-ending and seemingly unresolvable sharpening threads.

I learnt long ago to venture no opinion whatsoever on how best to sharpen a plane iron, chisel, gouge, scraper, or anything else used to cut wood. I used to participate offering my preferred method (and arguing pointlessly), but can no longer be *rsed to do so. On the other hand, I'm more than happy to show the learners I have (and had) responsibility for how to do the job, and as far as I'm aware every one of probably hundreds has mastered the technique. As to the technique I teach, personally I'd say it falls into what I'd call 'The Sharp'n'Go' bracket. Slainte.

 

[Ttrees]

Richard
I will continue to find it thoroughly interesting, until I find at least one proper example in video evidence, that is....
Which would be ....the time difference between sharpening a chisel which needs the primary bevel to be ground, and one which has a freshly ground edge.
But wait! Its not just that, but I must see the tool in use in a situation that I can relate to, like what I will attempt to explain.

Say one is widening a mortise by paring, be it for whatever silly or not reason....
Paring with a fresh edge chisel, in the direction of the grain to the end of the mortise...no bother!
The problem arises whilst getting close to the other end and you cant cut in the direction of the grain, but you have to cut against it to get to the other end of the mortise...
You can work directly crossgrain 90 degrees, but I often find it will still tear out a bit...
One way would be to combine 90 degree crossgrain, with a slicing cut pulling it towards the grain direction.
The chisel needs to be super sharp for that invisible joint....
(not normally done regarding mortises but in my case filling iroko door stiles to the tolerence I want is necessary, if I wish to make anything fine from the stuff
and for it not to look like scrap timber)
I can't say I can get all these mortises that good, but plenty so far, bar the grain/colour matching on some...I am less concerned about this for the moment.
Just trying to get that consistant.
Loved reading that blog, thanks for posting it.
Tom

 

[AES]

See, I said it before - Jacob simply has "last word it-is"!

 

[Jacob]

...
I wont believe that you spend time on this forum, but won't watch a wee video, or two.

I've watched one or two but find them exasperating more often than not. Just so much elaborate and complicated misinformation

.......
No flattening of the back/face/flat of the edge of a plane iron, and you can't set the cap iron to be effective,
and if its non polished, the edge will blunt instantly for me for fine work, working with irokos tough wild grain......
I cant imagine that you could get that good of an edge if the back is not polished.....

Turning it over flat and taking off the burr on a fine stone, does all the polishing you need.
Though if you are a carver, or want a super fine finish direct from the plane or chisel itself, a bit of extra polishing helps. Simplest is Autosol on a leather strop, or an mdf disc on a lathe head stock turning slow. This is also really good for inside edge of gouges as you can use the edge of the disc and shape it.