What is David Charlesworth using?

[Bodgers]

Why use a jig? Craftsmen never used them before they were invented and plenty of us still don't.
If your worried about keeping the angle constant during sharpening do this:-
1. stand feet apart, shoulders parallel with the stone
2. Hold the blade with both hands at your required angle with pressure on the cutting edge
3. tuck your elbows into your sides so that your upper body is locked steady
4. create the sharpening motion by swaying your upper body with legs only.

With a bit of practice you'll soon get the hang of it
Brian

Judging by the totally out of square blades on the couple of used planes I've bought on eBay so far, people are definitely in need of a honing guide

 

[Jacob]

......
I've said this before to Jacob, freehand sharpening is something that some struggle with for years. Not days, weeks or months. Years. I'm sure it sounds like an exaggeration but it isn't and there are countless posts on every woodworking forum in the world to prove it.

Some people get it early on but others don't. And rarely mentioned, some will never get it; .....

It's a mystery then that it wasn't difficult in the past and nobody 'never' got it.
Honing guides only came in the 80s, with the boom in amateur woodworking, though there were earlier examples which never caught on and are extremely rare. Woodworking has been going on for thousands of years.
How did they manage before?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

'80s? I remember one at school 50+ years ago and I had one bought for me at the same time. Never used it, though. ( I must admit I learned to sharpen things before anyone thought to tell me it was difficult )

 

[thetyreman]

I sharpen stuff freehand and find it a lot easier and less time wasting (all chisels and plane blades), but for some blades like spokeshave, cabinet scraper and plough I use a guide, does that make me a hybrid?

 

[screwpainting]

From the moment man first started to make things anything like accurate, a starting reference point has been at the heart of simple consistency. Level, Plumb, flat and true, all impossible freehand or by eye by all but a special few who have a gift or considerable skill.

This sounds like a tall tale but I knew a plasterer back in the day, his name was John Hunt of Hunt plastering near Maidstone. Johns brother told me that John could plaster more or less any area freehand and it would be spot on. Rollox I thought, but I actually fixed all the tiling in that house, in particular the kitchen which was full of windows weird soffits and angled reveals etc. It blew me away, all my working life I had been preparing all the backing coats for whatever we were tiling, mostly sand/cement rendering of every kind and in particular for glass mosaic columns etc. We had to be fag paper accurate. We would always work to lathes and straight edges and got used to perfection, which ruined us for following on from any normal plasterer. Then I meet this bloke!! :shock: I have never seen anything like him since and we were like brothers in arms thereafter, a very rare beast was John.

So, for me to achieve the extremely accurate surfaces required for the work we used to do, I wouldn't even pick up a hawk and trowel until I had created those reference edges to float off of. I cannot tell you how boring and exasperating it is for a tiler to try and convince a builder or especially a plaster just how important it is to get the preparation right. "Just stick a bit more jollop behind them" :roll: :twisted: :roll: :evil: :roll: Oldest row in the building game, we are of course pre madonnas, I used to lose the will to live sometimes.
Any plaster/builder would have looked at johns methodology, then looked a mine and thought, that tiler is dicking around! But, I didn't have his skill, just needed the same end result and thats how hundreds of years of combined learning taught me to do it.

I have in the past, seen ten quids worth of plaster cost absolutely thousands as those that follow, attempt to compensate for the lack of care or skill that used that ten quids worth.

It's the same conversation on this thread, very rarely, an absolute master of his craft will develop a hand skill that applies to a particular aspect of his area of expertise. Great if thats a skill you really want to acquire, but when you think about the vast amount there is to know in the grand scheme of wood wrestling, it just seems daft when its easy to make or buy a jig that gives you a repeatable fixed reference to work from.

I miss my old trade and how my skillset was valued, not to mention a fit back and knees but resurrecting my love of woodworking is a trip down memory lane (in what feels like a dense fog) that funnily enough, started with two ebay stanleys and a honing jig, sheet of porcelain, wet and dry, a couple of days of alcohol fueled retirement bliss and low! two old planes restored and lovely and sharp.
It was easy, it worked and I enjoyed the process immensely

Freehand...Emmm :?

 

[Racers]

My balance is much better than my wife's I can stand on one leg putting a sock on, their is no way she can, but I don't say its easy you just have to practise because I know for her its impossible.
Some people on here don't seem recognise disabilitys or skill levels, they just think I find it easy why don't you.
Its counterproductive to try and force your method of sharpening on any one, explain your method and then let them decide if they find it acceptable for them.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

.....
Its counterproductive to try and force your method of sharpening on any one, explain your method and then let them decide if they find it acceptable for them.

Pete

I explain my method but I'm in no position to force it on anyone!
The question remains always unanswered; "why did sharpening get difficult in the 80s".
The answer is pretty obvious - that's when people started using jigs.
I did myself, to some extent about 50/50. It seemed such a good idea, it does work and the results look good. But it's slow, needs lots of kit, you have to flatten stones, you can't camber, and so on.
It took me some years to get back to basics - I can remember it well - I sharpened everything in the shop in no time at all, stuff I'd never used even, it was such a pleasure to be able to do this simple thing easily and quickly - just like everybody had been doing for 1000s of years!

Re screwpainting's plastering comparison - plastering is in a different league to sharpening by a long way. I've done it, but badly - just occasionally getting into the groove but not for long.
Ordinary sharpening is something which apprentices and school kids picked up in their first few days at the bench.

 

[ElectricFeet]

There's also a good video by the Samurai Carpenter with a tip on varying angles when freehand sharpening. I still can't post links, but if you google for...

FTF #4 How To Freehand Sharpen The Samurai Carpenter

...you should find it. He's crazy perfectionist for sharpness (even at competition level!) and you can find a lot of tips there.

 

[ED65]

It's a mystery then that it wasn't difficult in the past and nobody 'never' got it.
...
How did they manage before?

You're comparing very different groups of people in completely different circumstances and environments.

Hobby woodworkers are not the same category of person as all the young lads who headed into the trade. They're not the same age, and they're not required by the day job (12-hour days at minimum let's not forget!) to do it and do it until they grok it, the way you have to if you know it'll make the difference between having a roof over your head and eating and going to the poor house. Ever so slight difference in motivation between the two groups.

And then the environment. Hands-on training and correction (and chivying when you don't pick it up in five minutes "like you're supposed to") from one or two old timers who have been doing it for 30-50 years, coupled with endless opportunities to watch all the old hands do it with their individual minor variations. What kind of self learning can even hope to compete with that?

Honing guides only came in the 80s

As said to you many many many times before, this is not true.

But it doesn't matter whether it is true or not, it doesn't change the fact that some people benefit from using jigs. And there's the occasional person who has to, they're not physically capable of the doing the actions repeatably accurately the way freehand honing demands.

And some people just want to Jacob, irrespective of whether some freehand sharpeners preach to them that they shouldn't!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

One very fine craftsman (sadly no longer with us) was Jim Kingshott, author of several excellent books on woodworking, including 'Sharpening: The Complete Guide'. In the preamble to the chapter 'The Sharpening Process' he describes his first introduction to sharpening as a young apprentice. His apprentice master gave him a brief demonstration, then left him to it. Many times, the young Jim rubbed his plane iron up and down his stone, then presented it to his master for approval, only to be told that his master could ride to London and back on the edge of said iron and not cut himself. Eventually, the master sharpened his iron for him, using just a few strokes.

Jim wrote, "He left me sharpening all of one long morning before taking the iron and doing it himself, talking me through the whole process. It was at least a year before I managed to get an edge on my tools that was anywhere near as sharp as his."

Moral - it takes time to gain skill. (Some 'get it' quicker than others, but there's no magic short cut.) Some will invest the time, some will cut to the chase and use a jig instead. It matters not which you do, provided you can maintain sharp edges one way or another.

Racers nailed it earlier in the thread - what you do in the privacy of your own workshop is your own business, and nobody else's.

 

[Jacob]

.....

Honing guides only came in the 80s

As said to you many many many times before, this is not true. ....

One or two were around earlier but there are very few examples - they didn't catch on as nobody needed them. I started woodwork at school in the 50s and they were unheard of. I did C&G in the 80s and they were just coming in (in the mags, shops etc) but we were discouraged from using them - not cheap amongst other things.
Modern sharpening fashions (endlessly flattening stones, alternative expensive jigs, plate glass, granite slabs, scary sharp, etc etc) are all recent arrivals.
I keep going on about it for the same reason that modern sharpeners go on about their stuff - we both think they work and are useful. It's entirely up to you which way you go but it must be good to have a choice and it would be a great pity if these simple and useful skills are lost to the gadget salesmen and dodgy experts.

PS one of the early ones is actually one of the best
http://www.oldhandtools.co.uk/stanley-honing-guide
It's simple, can camber, but it only works with slotted plane blades. Useful for beginners to get their eye in on 30º but once they've got it they don't need it anymore

 

[AES]

@ Racers, ED 65, and Cheshire Chappie.

As a jig user (mostly!!!) I for one really do appreciate the sound common sense of your posts, all 3 three of you. Not to mention your collective patience in making these points clearly and without any "cant"- or even an aggravated tone!

Based on a significant number of his previous posts however, I very much fear you're just wasting your time gents - at least as far as Jacob is concerned. As is often said, with much truth, "there's none so deaf as those who WILL NOT hear".

 

[John15]

I sharpen without the use of jigs. It took a while to become competent at hand sharpening but now the results are very good and I think it must be quicker than using the jig method.

John
John

 

[AES]

@Jacob: I too started wood working at school in the 1950s. If I remember correctly it was 2 hours per week - perhaps 3 hours, but certainly NOT longer.

"Teacher" (thanks Mr. Johnson) explained that sharpening chisels and plane irons was very important for success, and told us about "a jig" (though there weren't any for our use - I guess it was the Eclipse jig he was talking about, but dunno for sure). Mr. Johnson also explained and then showed the sharpening process (India oilstone) and said we were all welcomed to have a go, but if we didn't get it (most didn't, including me!) he would sharpen our tools for us whenever we asked. Sometimes when he went around the benches, seeing someone struggling, he often said "Give that tool to me" and then sharpened if with a couple of quick strokes.

BUT Jacob, the point he was making was that within the allotted lesson time, most of us would waste too much precious actual wood-working time, so unless we wanted to continue with wood as a career after leaving school (when we MUST learn hand sharpening OR buy a jig!) he simply said to the rest of us destined for other pastures, "leave the sharpening to me lads".

No doubt you would (and will!) decry Mr. Johnson's approach Jacob.

Me? I'd just say he had an entirely practical approach (and was a pipping good teacher and thoroughly good bloke to boot)! I'm 73 now, so he must be LONG gone. Fondly remembered though.

 

[Jacob]

..........Sometimes when he went around the benches, seeing someone struggling, he often said "Give that tool to me" and then sharpened if with a couple of quick strokes.
...........
No doubt you would (and will!) decry Mr. Johnson's approach Jacob.......

No not at all I wouldn't decry Mr Johnson's approach - that's how you learn - having a go, having someone show you and demonstrating that it only takes a couple of quick strokes, having another go etc.
If he'd been sharpening with jigs and all the modern paraphernalia the class would have ground to a halt.
The fact is - the whole of woodwork is difficult for beginners and sharpening is just one item, but a critical one. Being able to do it quickly and easily 'in a couple of strokes' makes everything else easier too.
I'm 73 too - our woodwork teacher was aptly named Charley Pine and his approach was much the same.

Imagine if Mr Pine or Mr Johnson had brought out a selection of jigs, some granite plates, started a lapping demonstration, fitted all the planes with fashionable thick retro blades etc etc - no woodwork would be done at all!
The more this debate goes on the more laughable I find modern sharpening fashions and the ludicrous amount of unnecessary kit.

 

[Beau]

Another freehand sharpener here. I dont remember it bing difficult to learn either.

I get were Jacob is coming from as going to some of the shows and seeing all the gadgets you can get for sharpening makes me chuckle but if it's the only way you can get a good edge is with a jig then why not use one. If it's a hobby then arguments about time are probably irrelevant and I think some have as much fun with the jigs and tools as making things and were is the harm in that?

To the OP try one but dont think a jig use is the only way to get a quality edge on your tools because it's not

 

[ED65]

.....

Honing guides only came in the 80s

As said to you many many many times before, this is not true. ....

One or two were around earlier but there are very few examples - they didn't catch on as nobody needed them.

That's your perception but you're wholly mistaken.

It wasn't "one or two" there were a great many competing designs over the years. Stanley alone made at least two, the one you linked to and the venerable no. 200. Then there's the Craftsman 3774, the General 810 (simplified in later years to the 809, which I think happened in the 60s or 70s), So that's four versions of the one basic design, every one pre-dating the 1980s by quite a bit, that only a couple of minutes of Googling brings up.

So please, can we have no more pretending you don't know this isn't just a "modern fashion" and that there were but one or two?

I started woodwork at school in the 50s and they were unheard of.

Even if we accept that your memory of the time is flawless (!) they were unheard of where you were. Lest it needs to be said, woodworking took place elsewhere but the one place you were. And further afield than Blighty!

I keep going on about it for the same reason that modern sharpeners go on about their stuff - we both think they work and are useful. It's entirely up to you which way you go but it must be good to have a choice and it would be a great pity if these simple and useful skills are lost to the gadget salesmen and dodgy experts.

Missing the point again Jacob. You do remember I'm a freehand sharpener as well, right? And unlike you I've always been a freehander :lol:

All this pointless back and forth about jigs and when they came in or how popular or common they were, all that, it's all a distraction. If Joe Bloggs wants to do woodwork now he needs sharp edges now, if he's unlucky enough not to be able to freehand – again, to the required high standard for things to work properly, and for safety – then he needs to use a jig. No ifs ands or buts, needs to.

No amount of debate or argument changes this fact.

 

[custard]

You do remember I'm a freehand sharpener as well, right?

But Ed, you've only recently taking up woodworking, and have never actually made anything yet!

So your opinion and experience of sharpening is all a bit academic, it isn't based on the practical reality of sharpening tools in an actual workshop.

 

[Jacob]

.....
It wasn't "one or two" there were a great many competing designs over the years. Stanley alone made at least two, the one you linked to and the venerable no. 200. Then there's the Craftsman 3774, the General 810 (simplified in later years to the 809, which I think happened in the 60s or 70s), So that's four versions of the one basic design, every one pre-dating the 1980s by quite a bit, that only a couple of minutes of Googling brings up.

They are now very rare because not many were sold. Nobody really needed them. There are even earlier rare Victorian examples 'for the gentleman woodworker' etc.
I expect tool makers would be more geared up but the actual users would be almost entirely freehand sharpeners. It's cheaper, quicker, easier, but not quite as tidy looking as a rule.

PS easy to overlook of course - but any semi competent woodworker who felt he needed a jig would very easily knock one up from a few scraps of wood, rather than buying an expensive gadget - or a collection of expensive gadgets as per your better off modern woodworker

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Every once in a while I feel the urge to post this hoary old chestnut in these sharpening threads. It can sometimes take a bit of the heat out of a rather boring (to me) subject that always seems capable of generating far too much pointless bickering. Personally, I don't care a rat's a ..., er, bottom how anyone gets their planes or chisels sharp, except in a money making production workshop where it simply needs to be fast - time is money. Slainte.