Road Pricing

[Shivers]

We have for yrs already had a better record of public transport ect than most countrys.
I wasn't sure what the term chelsea tractor meant --until the other day i saw one on the tele --for gods sake its a small 4x4 landrover/range rover--.

Nothing wrong at all with these apart from very high CO2 emissions and poor fuel consumption. And fine when used in sensible locations eg rural but not taking children all of 800 yards down a very crowded London street. Accident statistics also show that for a pedestrian the chances of injury are significantly higher when hit by Chelsea tractor then when hit by a more sensibly sized car.

agreed they are more liable to injure ---so is a bus,if i wanted to convert to horse and cart--what sort of authorities would i have to get permission from to be able to do so,& what sort of parking grade would i fall into,you see its all rediculous the way people are set up to think --already on your opening you quote saftey measures,fuel tax accounts for a primary percentage of the cost at the pump already--its not our fault if someone cant manage the income from that --& do the right things with it.

i missed the public transport query--compared to any city in the usa we are streets ahead on public transport,you wonder why they have cheap fuel--it's because it drives the whole economy over there,they have a inafective public transport system for commuters.


shivers.

 

[Waka]

If road pricing is to be introduced then the powers that be, must ensure that there is an alternative means of public transport covering the whole of the UK. It is all very well talking about decreasing the number of cars on the road but how do people in rural areas get to and from work.

As usual no thought has gone into how this will work or effect a vast majority of the population.

I have no problem with road pricing as long as a reliable public transport system is in place to cater for all, and the current road fund licence is abolished and finally fuel duty is reduced to zero.

But we all no this will not happen, one way forward is to restrict households to one vehicle only, that will reduce the number of cars signifcantly. As for gas guzzling 4x4 I don't even want to go there.

 

[Scrit]

We have for yrs already had a better record of public transport ect than most countrys.

From experience: against Germany, the Netherlands and Denmark that most certainly isn't true! We have an infrequent, unreliable, overcrowded, dirty and more to the point extremely expensive public transport network which is hardly a pleasure to use and which doesn't run when people need it, e.g. early in the moprning and late at night. The network is chronically underfunded with at times highly questionable mainainance standards not to mention disjointed with little or no attempt to integrate bus and rail timetables. And unlike France, Italy and Japan, etc our long-distance trains are slow, uncomfortable (been on a new Virgin train?) and once again very expensive. It comes to something when firms up here now fly people to London from Manchester or Leeds (with the environmental impact that all implies) because it's considerably cheaper than going by rail!

Scrit

 

[dedee]

Listen, if everyone else would use public transport it would be far easier for ME to drive my car to work :!: :wink:

Andy

ps we don't actually have public transport anymore, do we? - isn't it all run by private companies who, by the very nature, have to make a profit?

 

[Adam]

Guys all this talk is about their being no alternative to driving to work. There is, move closer to work.

After you tot up just the petrol for a year, the depreciation, the stress, the time, the road tax, the insurance, then.....never mind it costing a lot of money to move house, its costs a lot of money not to move house to be closer, i.e. walking/cycling distance away.

We've followed this route and got rid of a car. I keep hearing of people who drive huge distances, change their car every couple of years, spend an hour or two each way, vast amounts on petrol, but they will not take a local job even at a grand or two less - which is madness, the costs of driving to work are quite extreme, often in depreciation on a car.

Sure its an upheaval if you have kids, but if you gained back a couple of hours to be outside playing with them, or heaven forbid you'd get extra time in the workshop. Now thats got to be worth considering. :wink:

Adam

 

[RogerS]

Listen, if everyone else would use public transport it would be far easier for ME to drive my car to work :!: :wink:

Andy

ps we don't actually have public transport anymore, do we? - isn't it all run by private companies who, by the very nature, have to make a profit?

Actually a very good point, Andy, especially as it touches on another 'soap-box' of mine, namely that civil servants (local and central govt) are usually pretty inept when it comes to negotiating contracts. Metronet on the London tube springs to mind. The Inland Revenue (IIRC) letting their contractor (EDS? Accenture?) off the hook without paying any penalty charges when the IT project got canned as it was too little/too late/not fit for purpose. "Not in the public interest" were the weasel words used by the government. (probably applies to all governments).

Another one relates to why you read/hear about 'loads of empty buses going down oxford Street'. that one is very simple to explain. When TfL negotiated the tender they simply stipulated..how much will you charge to provide x buses an hour. No concept as to whether or not there is actually a demand for x buses outside rush-hour. So the private companies are simply honouring the contract they have signed up to. Nice one, Ken.

But we live in a 'me-first' age, it seems to me...as epitomised by the 4x4 driver the other day who parked sideways across two disabled bays. That plus the fact that all the builders in Malvern are disabled since the two disabled bays outside my local Bradfords are always filled up with Property Care vehicles and the like. :evil: Makes me want to introduce their kneecaps to Mr Iron Bar ...selfish gits....rant over ....

I guess there is nothing in principle against road-pricing (especially as we already pay for it via excise duty on petrol/road fund licence etc). And it could be scaled appropriately...so us here in rural areas get to pay only 0.0001p per mile as we have no public transport whereas those who live in the cities with their excellent, reliable, cheap public transport :wink: can pay £1.20 per mile. That seems very equitable to me :lol:

Just as long as the contracts are negotiated by professional procurement people from the private sector.

 

[Shivers]

Ok so i was off the mark with public transport--it's still better than most countries but not good as it used to be -who's fault is that--the epeople whom are telling us now that we need to use more public transport,

this tax as you drive thing is already in force --its called fuel tax(nothing wrong with that at all apart from being more expensive),why introduce a program to track you & pay tax you on distance traveled,how much more of a complicated system could they come up with,

what happens if you fall short of the bill amount for the month or quarter--whatever it will be.do they clamp your car--send the baliffs in/add surcharges like the inland revenue.

will there be a standing charge whether you travel or not.
how much will the admin for this elaborate system cost.

on & on & on,people don't realize what this lot are up too.

what happened to the pledge to reduce red tape last year.

shivers.

 

[RogerS]

what happens if you fall short of the bill amount for the month or quarter--whatever it will be.do they clamp your car--send the baliffs in/add surcharges like the inland revenue.

Sshh..you'll give them ideas, Shivers!!

What a brilliant way to reduce congestion. Hike the price up high enough. Put enough glitches in the system to give you inaccurate bills. Set up an Indian call centre. Award the contract to C*apita and with service levels of 21 working days to respond to emails and bingo. By the time you've given up trying to sort the duff ticket out, they'll have sent round the bailiffs, towed your car away and crushed it. Do that enough times to enough people and that should sort out road congestion. Oh yes...you'll still have to pay for the erroneous ticket :wink:

 

[Adam]

why introduce a program to track you & pay tax you on distance traveled,how much more of a complicated system could they come up with,

Isn't the point that it charges more at peak times? You can't get the time specific flexibility by simply taxing fuel more.

Adam

 

[Anonymous]

ps we don't actually have public transport anymore, do we? - isn't it all run by private companies who, by the very nature, have to make a profit?

Exactly, theres the rub. Same as with post office's, telephone boxes etc when it was public owned the busy places helped the quiet ones out, as soon as privatised, they were only interested in keeping up the profitable place's. I did at one time make use of public buses but gave up due to them being unreliable, overcrowded, dirty with vomit etc and eventually just walked or cycled to work-fine as it was only about a mile and a half. Darlington had the infamous "bus wars" with literally turf war among the competeing drivers racing about to get the passengers first :roll: Yet 12 or 15 miles away in the dales it was a different story, lone bus every 2 hours if your lucky.

Adam you make a valid point about moving closer to work but I expect theres plenty folks done that then been made redundant, or are on a short/flaky contract=> uncertainty about making that commitment. And where jobs are house price's are higher any way.

Are metro net and TFL running the london buses/tube nowadays? Back in the early 80's even then it was faster to go by bike, no cycle lanes as such, just take the bull by the horns and go for it. I was lucky only being involved in 2 accidents in 6 years (neither of which was my fault). I lived in Old Kent road, worked at London Zoo, an hour and a quarter by direct bus (53 if I remember rightly), 40 minutes by bike :lol: :lol:

 

[Adam]

I've got a better suggestion!!! If on the previous journey you engine was only running for 10 minutes, they should install some electronics which stops you starting it for 10 minutes. Really inconvenient when in a hurry. That would cut out all the "nip" to the shops brigade. Could be 10 minutes, or 5 minutes, but it would cut out a lot of school-runners which are only a few minutes anyway.

Adam

 

[RogerS]

Guys all this talk is about their being no alternative to driving to work. There is, move closer to work.
:wink:

Adam

Adam...driving your red monster I can appreciate why you'd want to move closer to work Seriously, like many other posts here, your point is well-made.

 

[Jake]

Jake you seem a bit mixed up because you started out by saying you think road pricing is a good idea then belly aching because you already have it in London and are certain to get it even worse.

I wasn't bellyaching, I support the congestion charge, even though I'm always getting fined for forgetting to pay the damn thing. I was simply pointing out that we are hardly going to be immune from it.

Is it the case that Londoners are already being observed by spy camera's and being charged so much pence per mile? Or are you talking about the congestion charge that the "chiselling crook" inposed, motivated by nore than a hint of class war mentality? :lol: :lol:

Yes, it's a crude form of the same thing.

It seems what your really saying is that its a good idea nationally.

I think it is going to be necessary nationally - try a motorway at peak hours and imagine doubling the amount of traffic on the road?

Your assumptions are skewed?? Your still avoiding the issue that in your metropolitan idyll you have long established reliable and practical alternatives to a personal car and if someone persists in car use in London then there is possibly a case for expecting them to pay out for the privelidge. But there are vast swathes of the UK where public transport is thin to non existent on the ground. People living those places simply wont have the option to use an alternative means of transport.

You are assuming that rural roads will be priced the same (or at all) as trunk roads and motorways. That isn't necessarily the case, and isn't the current proposal, so it's just scaremongering. The DoT study proposed a scale from 2p per mile to £1.34 a mile on the busiest motorways.

I dont need to do traffic flow projections (civil servant non-job).

Right, and who will you blame when the roads seize up completely with too much traffic for the network to cope with because no-one thought to think about it - the state and its incompetent non-job civil servants, perhaps? The problem is that traffic is growing and will continue to grow. Either you ration access somehow, or you cover more of the country in tarmac, which encourages more traffic, and so on.

I want to know why yet more tax is about to be demanded of the motorist, as I am not convinced it has any value in helping the congestion, pollution etc only to get more cash for wages and pension's.

The proposal is revenue neutral, as I understand it. Road tax and fuel duty would either go or be reduced greatly, and the road charges set at a level which would replace that. The aim is to keep the numbers of vehicles on the road at any one time to a number which the network can cope with

And if you do a one in one out system it sounds fine in theory but what about the place where they have the lights or whatever to let people in it'd be worse than ever even if it was clear in the places where the congestion was reduced :wink: :lol:

Well, quite. So how are you going to ration road use? Or do you want us to just keep building more and more ever wider roads?

 

[StevieB]

Adam wrote:

Guys all this talk is about their being no alternative to driving to work. There is, move closer to work.

Wish it were that simple Adam. I have a job that doesnt exist in Kent - I have to work in London. Now since a 2 bed mid terrace house with a concrete 10x10 garden goes for £300k where I work (Tooting - not even somewhere posh!) and I can get a 4 bed semi for that in Kent where I live, with 2 kids would you honestly choose to live in cramped conditions and walk to work or live in reasonable conditions and commute?

As with anything there is no easy answer, the term SNAFU springs to mind - Situation Normal, All ***** Up. It wont be sorted in my lifetime, and probably not my childrens either. now if only we could harness all the hot air coming out of Whitehall..... :wink:

Steve.

 

[Adam]

Adam wrote:

Guys all this talk is about their being no alternative to driving to work. There is, move closer to work.

Wish it were that simple Adam. I have a job that doesnt exist in Kent - I have to work in London. Now since a 2 bed mid terrace house with a concrete 10x10 garden goes for £300k where I work (Tooting - not even somewhere posh!) and I can get a 4 bed semi for that in Kent where I live, with 2 kids would you honestly choose to live in cramped conditions and walk to work or live in reasonable conditions and commute?

As with anything there is no easy answer, the term SNAFU springs to mind - Situation Normal, All ***** Up. It wont be sorted in my lifetime, and probably not my childrens either. now if only we could harness all the hot air coming out of Whitehall..... :wink:

Steve.

True, but I did say move closer, as a partial solution even if you can't get right close. Take a 5 mile ride on a pushbike from Tooting, and you cover a seriously large number of properties, some of which is affordable. Take a 20 mile ride, and you cover large areas in and around london and the south east.

On a similar note, people drive 10 minutes to the train station every morning???

Sure not everybody wants to ride a bike in these areas. I used to be a member of a car share (I was "last in"), at least 5 members, but as one worked part time, and one had a people mover it was not often that I couldn't get a lift (they had a 4 persons in a normal car policy), and the person who suffered was the "last in" member of the group. So often as not, I had a full car each way to work. We had a fully worked out credit system if someone missed a day, took a weeks holiday etc.

Even when I moved jobs, I still managed to partially participate in the share, by leaving my car at their car park, and doing the forward section of the journey on my own. Or dropping them off part way on my "driving" day.

Even my previous job I found someone to car share with. He wasn't such an attentive driver though. Shouting "Stop" as he approaches a busy roundabout is not something a passenger is supposed to do.

Thinking about it even the job before i managed to find a share.

Adam :shock:

 

[StevieB]

Take a 5 mile ride on a pushbike from Tooting, and you cover a seriously large number of properties, some of which is affordable. Take a 20 mile ride, and you cover large areas in and around london and the south east.

Tried that - used to live 5 miles from Tooting and did pushbike to work - it was a small place called Epsom, that extremely expensive area with the racecourse where they hold the Derby every year :lol: :lol: :lol: Sadly a two bed upstairs flat with no garden also wasn't ideal for children, shame because I really liked living there.

I compromise now and go by motorbike every day - doing 65 miles each way on a pushbike is enough to test even the keenest EcoWarrior :wink:

Steve.

 

[NickWelford]

The proposal is revenue neutral, as I understand it.

Is there any such thing? Quite apart from the exorbitant costs of running any government scheme, the money grasping ones in power (of any persuasion) will want to fund other pet ideas they have..... not to mention their solid gold severance pay and pensions

 

[Jake]

They can already do that with fuel duty and VED. I'm sure the same people who object on that ground will say they already do. Changing the mechanism doesn't alter the potential for that.

Re costs, yes, fair point, but not that great compared to the costs of building more roads.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, quite. So how are you going to ration road use? Or do you want us to just keep building more and more ever wider roads?

I thought it was you who said road acess had to be rationed, so why are you asking me how it should be done :roll: Are you a civil servant? You havent yet given a solid sudgestion as to how roads should be rationed apart from some sort of filter system which would only create worse bottleneck's at the acess points. What your trying to avoid is the reality that road rationing will favour well off people who are in a position to pay (or have it paid for them by employer/civil service/local council etc), or people who have alternative public transport options available to them. It would definately discriminate against folk who are not well off, or are living in location's with no alternative modes of transport.
Granted maybe they will have a range of price's for different regions or types of roads. But EG even if your driving round say Peckham/Walworth/Camberwell green/Lewisham/New Cross/Hither Green etc etc, they arent motorway or trunk type roads (are they?? maybe in the last 20 odd years they put a 6 lane higheway from Victoria to new Cross?? :lol: ), maybe you'd get to pay only 2p a mile on them, but you would STILL have decent available transport option's wouldnt you. Rural folk might "Only" have to pay 2 p a mile for the privelidge of driving on their idyllic lanes :roll: , but they dont have any realistic alternative, and are unlikely to ever get one no matter what you might say about road pricing stimulating commercial investment in transport, theres small number of people spread over large area's=commercially unattractive. And they'd still be paying road tax/fuel duty as well. As for revenue neutral what sort of jargon is that :roll: ? If you think the fueltax and road fund tax would be scrapped or reduced you must be mistaken the govt wants more money, this scheme gives them a convenient opportunity to grab it :wink:
Dont get me wrong, I recognise there is a problem with road over crowding etc BUT I think this chiselling crook/green type rheoric about road rationing is unfair, ill conceived and designed only for a bit of short term political popularity.
Cheers Jonathan

 

[chiba]

You chaps have an easy life. If I drive to my mother-in-laws across town, which is 40km away, it costs me almost exactly 10 quid each way in tolls. :shock: