mortice and tenons

[Scrit]

Sorry, that's not helpful. Interesting thead actually, particularly the feelings of reluctance to use loose tenons. I have the same problem, and I don't know why! In 1903 one book was declaring m&ts as old hat and how everyone uses dowels now - although that was furniture making.

Possibly because it means two glue joints per wood joint if you know what I mean. Glue joints were always a potential source of failure in the days of hide glues which is why m&ts on good quality doors, etc were always foxed (wedged). With modern adhesives actually being stronger than wood itself maybe we shouldn't be so reticent.

Scrit

 

[wrightclan]

Sorry, that's not helpful. Interesting thead actually, particularly the feelings of reluctance to use loose tenons. I have the same problem, and I don't know why! In 1903 one book was declaring m&ts as old hat and how everyone uses dowels now - although that was furniture making.

Possibly because it means two glue joints per wood joint if you know what I mean. Glue joints were always a potential source of failure in the days of hide glues which is why m&ts on good quality doors, etc were always foxed (wedged). With modern adhesives actually being stronger than wood itself maybe we shouldn't be so reticent.

Scrit

Well said. =D> =D>

 

[JFC]

Just cos you've got a 'legacy' or a 'rat' (whatever that is) doesn't mean you 'have' to use them. In fact by and large I think you might be better off binning them

Thats a very odd thing to say without having tried out the product . I cant speak for the rat but i know you haven't tried the legacy because you wouldn't have said the above if you had .
Still if you don't want to look into a product that can save you time and money then thats up to you :?


With regards to the modern glues a scribe joint and a biscuit would make a stronger joint than a loose tenon would it not ?

 

[Scrit]

Well, speaking as someone who's owned a 'rat, for this sort of task I'd probably find it of less use. The 'rat is great for one-offs and prototype work because it is so versatile, but for volume work it's not really ideal because it has no fixed stops as you'd expect to see on, say, a chisel or chain mortiser - you set pencil marks, etc. then eyeball it. Batch work at speed pushes you into different solutions such as marking out only the first piece and having stops or fences on the machine. By working this way much time can be saved. Can't say about the Legacy having never used one.

Scrit

 

[RogerS]

because it (the rat) has no fixed stops as you'd expect to see on, say, a chisel or chain mortiser - you set pencil marks, etc. then eyeball it.
Scrit

but if you go to Aldel'ssite there's loads of jigs that will give you repeatability...at relatively little cost.

 

[wrightclan]

With regards to the modern glues a scribe joint and a biscuit would make a stronger joint than a loose tenon would it not ?

Probably about equal. A biscuit is basically a small loose tenon. But I think an appropriately sized loose tenon would be marginally stronger, if only because the thin point of a scribe joint can sometimes split, and a larger loose tenon would give more gluing surface. I really think either method(done accurately), or a traditional tenon would last the life of the window.

Brad

 

[Anonymous]

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[JFC]

True , you can have an opinion without having used something .
The reason i was thinking of using the legacy is because in my experience of cutting tenons on the bandsaw i tend to spend more time cleaning up than actually cutting the tenons . Maybe i should take a little more care and time when using the bandsaw but i found passing them over the router (in the table) gave a better result than straight of the bandsaw .
Thats why i thought about using the legacy as it will speed up the routing process .

 

[Anonymous]

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[gidon]

HI JFC
Coming in on this a bit late - but I don't find tenons cut straight off my bandsaw good enough for joints I find acceptable - always need cleaning up some. And I have my bandsaw set up as well as I can with a good quality blade. Maybe I need a bigger / better bandsaw .
I think rough cutting them on the bandsaw almost to the shoulder and then cleaning them up on the router table (including making the final shoulder cut) with a sled is the best option. Only need to have one setting for the bit height and fence (perhaps another bit height setting for the haunch). And you don't have to be particuarly careful on the bandsaw.

Cheers
Gidon

 

[nickson71]

I've just built a cot .....pic's to follow this weekend........... and all the mortise and tennons (90 off them) were cut in about 4hrs using my rat ...... all fitted perfectly even though I've never cut them on the rat before ...

 

[JFC]

The tenon is seen on the end grain and straight off the bandsaw gives me results like this

I want the end grain to show a perfect fit .

 

[Scrit]

How big is your tenon, JFC? Pity you're not a bit closer - a simple tenon like that is a doddle on a spindle moulder, even double pass with a single tenon disc. As a point of comparison the single-end tenoner takes me 20 to 40 minutes to set-up for scribed work (5 heads), but only 10 to 15 minutes for a straight tenon with a sizing saw cut (3 heads). Thereafter I can tenon at the rate of 120 to 250 tenons per hour three to five up. That's why I think the 'Rat way is slow and uneconomic for trades work.

Scrit

 

[Anonymous]

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[JFC]

Bandsaw is a RSBS14 and ive got a record 75 bench top morticer . The mortice and tenons are 12mm thick and for windows 50mm but i need to do 100mm also for doors .

 

[Anonymous]

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[JFC]

They'll do it OK.

I know , ive cut a few thousand myself using this method .
The point your missing is im not happy with this method and i want every M&T to be a perfect fit without having to play with them by hand .

 

[Anonymous]

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[JFC]

If i try harder it will feel like im working for a living rather than playing with tools :lol:
Im wondering if a dedicated router set up to cut the wedged side of the mortices and the last 12 mm of the tenon ( not including the 10mm scrap) may be the way to get a perfect "looking" M&T .

P.S Mr Grimsdale you should take a closer look at the Legacy , it would make that arched door surround you have on your website in next to no time .

 

[Scrit]

JFC

As this is a softwood job I'm beginning to wonder if you could set-up two low-cost 1/2in routers in a horizontal router table with two quadrants - that would give you in effect a low-cost tenoner. The only downside is that your maximum length of tenon would be somewhere around 50 to 60mm the limit being the longest cutter you could get. I'll try to put this int SU and post it for the morrow.

Scrit