Why is this dangerous kit being advertised on here?

[Jacob]

......
Who's getting the brown envelopes there?

One thing certain is that nobody gets brown envelopes for suggesting push sticks - there's no money in it!*
Might squeeze out a bit of profit by gadgetising the thing and try to persuade people it has magic hi tech powers like the Bow Products PushPRO Push Stick | Wood Workers Workshop
Saw stop people must be worried as push sticks just about makes them redundant, except in very unusual circumstances where theres a risk that a complete novice or maniac has a go, with no idea at all of safe practices e.g. a typical American woodworker.
NB not to forget riving knives and crown guards!!
* PS I've been promoting push sticks for several years now and assure you that not even a shilling has yet come my way!

 

[Sideways]

Damn silly thing.
£5+ every time your saw cuts the end off it

 

[Doug71]

But the reality is very few craftsman are being formally trained and anyone can buy a machine online to be delivered to home and turned on with no prior experience or understanding of the dangers.

I started working in a joinery shop at 16, I'm sure I was 18 before I was let loose on the big machines without supervision.

You worked your way up starting with hand tools then power tools before using the bigger machines, starting with the safer ones like the mortiser. Before I used the saw bench or planer by myself I had spent hours stood behind them helping pull the wood through, all this meant you had built up loads of experience before you even used them.

I can understand how it might not end well when someone with zero experience (apart from a few YouTube videos) fires up their new table saw for the first time.......

 

[Bingy man]

I think personally it’s line a lot of situations we encounter these days . While there are those of us that take onboard safety and safety related practices there are those that do not . A few regardless of what tool or machine they use will 100% end up injured or seriously hurt or worse because they don’t have the relevant intelligence to comprehend what they are attempting or using has the ability to remove limbs or take away fingers or blind them . They just don’t see the danger let alone the risks . Then there are those that preach the correct methods and advise of the correct safety ppe etc to others while completely ignoring it themselves . These imo are possibly the most dangerous as others watching them will possibly adapt the same bad habits or dangerous ways of working ( some utubers are the worst for this as they could well have 1.000,s of followers .) then there are those that through work or their profession or teaching environment that absorb and understand the need for health and safety and dynamic risk assessment . These people know that most accidents could of been avoided, but for following the rules and taking all precautions while also using a decent amount of commen sense . They will then take these safe ways of working and risk assessing home with them and adopt them into their home shops and their diy mechanic repairs and the kitchen and the garden even a visit to a diy centre . I know which one I’d prefer to be - and yes before anyone else says it -I fully agree some h/s is a bit silly ( warning on a hot drink from macky,s caution contains hot liquid ) or the info on your m/wave ready meal ( caution -filling may be hot ) etc but 99% of it is decent and valid and could just save your limbs / life .. let’s never be too old to learn and change our ways if reqd .

 

[Ttrees]

Perhaps they could consider one of these for cases where the HSE might suggest where it's OK to use for wider rips?
I seen one on discount, but was put off by the shattery lookin plastic.
Tremendous grip though!
No ole in the handle, but a holster instead.

 

[schnapps95]

No I'd disagree. It's not one culture or the other and Britain was the sensible one . I've seen some bad practise in the UK and the HSE is a relatively new invention. Up till the 70's even 80's, there was little interest in health or safety of the workers anywhere in the UK

It was a labour government insisted on heath and safety, certainly not the tories to spend money to the benefit of the workers safety. Be that in the UK, or the US.

Actually, there has been a requirement to respect health and safety for some time here in the UK. It is simply that regulations change in the face of knowledge gained through experience or the advent of new technology and, hence, the assosciated hazards. When I started work in the 1950s, aged 15, it was a requirement to have a medical each year until I reached the age of 18 which deemed me fit to work. Accidents and dangerous occurences also had to be recorded. Albeit, this was much more a case of recording the incident rather than investigating it, however, the genisis was there.

I still have the 'General Register for Factories' which had to be kepft for inpsect by H.M. Inspectors as I later becamse the owner of the establishment. I have included some photos with names, other than my own, redacted.

 

[Sideways]

I suspect that a good thread like this every once in a while will ultimately be more productive than your moderators taking it upon ourselves to try and bully our site sponsors into not advertising selected products that we might not personally approve of but are widely advertised and available.

The recent thread by @BarbaraT about her own TS injury brought out some excellent discussion on safety, the selection and use of push sticks being part of it. Thanks to everyone who contributed to that.
Please let's keep it up. A genuine thread like this encourages discussion and provides an opportunity to critique poor design or practice and promote something better.

Personally, I have little time for what Jacob neatly labelled "gadgetised" safety aids and share many of the opinions before me about the Milescraft products, but there could be situations where they're appropriate so I'd rather critique than ban.

I don't know about others' experience but in shared workshops or other people's, I have sometimes noticed push sticks that are badly chewed or shortened to the point where they don't work well or no longer seem safe.
Rather than getting hung up on specific designs I tend to set aside decent, longer offcuts so that I have a constant supply of fresh sticks which, having a decent sized saw, I prefer them to be about two feet long. I'll quickly cut a very small birdsmouth and round off the back end.
The idea of buying plastic sticks whose design won't be ideal for me seems entirely pointless.
They are a consumable. Better made simply and replaced often.

Last observation. The forum should (in my view) be a safe space for conversations about H&S.
II's absolutely fair to argue that good technique, training, experience etc are the best foundation and to call out bad products and bad practice, but I don't think people should be criticised if they choose to spend money that some of us would consider extravagant. There was a day when seatbelts and airbags were "luxuries". Innovations like Sawstop may be stepping stones to something better in the long run.

 

[Cabinetman]

Some very good points in the last few comments- thanks Sideways. Interesting to see the old documentation, almost as old as me lol.
Good discussion, just hope we don’t have to do it again anytime soon because someone’s had an accident.
And I really do hope it’s not involving Milescraft products, that really would be too awful.
Ian

 

[Spectric]

We all know it’s a battle we can’t win against YouTube

Is this a generation thing with youtube or just the result of many people with smartphones being bombarded with information who now cannot differentiate between truth, fact, reality, waffle, hot air or just BS. We know there are some really bad working practices being demonstrated on you tube as well as some very informative ones and unless you have the knowledge or experience to know the difference then just take them with a pinch of salt and do not copy what they are doing.

If we drill this right down to root cause then all you need to do is look in a mirror and you will see someone who has the power to prevent your tablesaw from causing injury, no mater what you do that saw will always be dangerous and it is down to you to put in place a safe working practice. Maybe one safety feature that is missing on table saws are some bright black & yellow chevrons on the top to clearly indicate a no go zone for your hands / fingers.

than your moderators taking it upon ourselves to try and bully our site sponsors into not advertising selected products that we might not personally approve of but are widely advertised and available.

To show or explain any subject you need both sides of the argument, posting adverts of something that someone feels to be unsafe provides the subject for discussion and this thread has not just been criticism of the product but has also provided alternative products and sound reasoning as to why it may be unsafe. The one thing that does stand out as mentioned by @Doug71 is that in a working enviroment you get training and supervision with a new machine but at home you can go out and buy something, take it home and learn by using it and at the same time teach yourself bad habbits.

A few regardless of what tool or machine they use will 100% end up injured or seriously hurt or worse because they don’t have the relevant intelligence to comprehend what they are attempting or using has the ability to remove limbs or take away fingers or blind them .

This can be traced down to several things, once upon a time most kids got hands on with many things and your dad demonstrated making go karts, fixing punctures and many things that started you off, you often built a bike from bits and got used to tools. Now a different culture, many will take up a hobby at some point and have no prior experience with any tools but they have the money to buy everything and just jump in at the deep end without even thinking of safety, they grow up in an enviroment where reality has become blurred.

 

[Lons]

I don't think it's possible to prevent limbs being cut off and freak accidents will always happen, we just have tio do our bit to promote good practice, point out dangerous ones and if we save even one serious accident then it's worthwhile making potential users think carefully.

When I started, I had a drill powered kit including circular saw ay age 14 we were shown how to use it and read the instructions and recommended books, with the internet, poorly written or absent instructions no wonder that knowledge is now taken via youtube where anyone who can be bothered can and does post whatever they wish often for financial gain and without accountability.

But it is what it is and all we can do is our little bit.

EDIT
Spectric beat me to it.

 

[Bingy man]

Is this a generation thing with youtube or just the result of many people with smartphones being bombarded with information who now cannot differentiate between truth, fact, reality, waffle, hot air or just BS. We know there are some really bad working practices being demonstrated on you tube as well as some very informative ones and unless you have the knowledge or experience to know the difference then just take them with a pinch of salt and do not copy what they are doing.

If we drill this right down to root cause then all you need to do is look in a mirror and you will see someone who has the power to prevent your tablesaw from causing injury, no mater what you do that saw will always be dangerous and it is down to you to put in place a safe working practice. Maybe one safety feature that is missing on table saws are some bright black & yellow chevrons on the top to clearly indicate a no go zone for your hands / fingers.


To show or explain any subject you need both sides of the argument, posting adverts of something that someone feels to be unsafe provides the subject for discussion and this thread has not just been criticism of the product but has also provided alternative products and sound reasoning as to why it may be unsafe. The one thing that does stand out as mentioned by @Doug71 is that in a working enviroment you get training and supervision with a new machine but at home you can go out and buy something, take it home and learn by using it and at the same time teach yourself bad habbits.


This can be traced down to several things, once upon a time most kids got hands on with many things and your dad demonstrated making go karts, fixing punctures and many things that started you off, you often built a bike from bits and got used to tools. Now a different culture, many will take up a hobby at some point and have no prior experience with any tools but they have the money to buy everything and just jump in at the deep end without even thinking of safety, they grow up in an enviroment where reality has become blurred.

Never thought of it like that , and your right to a point , but I never had my dad to show me the ins and out of using tools especially power tools but I did from a very young age have thing about them , I’d often watch tradesmen working and wanted to have a go . So I’d offer to help , maybe earn a few pence but most of all get my hands on a few tools -anything and everything hand tools or power tools . I’d always listen to good advice but most of all be totally aware of the parts that moved - especially blades teeth or anything that could bite back . Hence why I refer to myself as self taught because that’s basically how I’ve done it . However not to proud to change if there is a safer way to achieve the same result ..

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I don't think it's possible to prevent limbs being cut off and freak accidents will always happen ...

H&S people will of course tell you there's no such thing as a "freak accident".

 

[Sideways]

H&S people will of course tell you there's no such thing as a "freak accident".

Unlit car parked in the fast lane of an unlit motorway was unusual,
that I hit it at 70 on a motorbike was unlucky,
that I'm still here = my definition of a freak accident !

H&S pedantry be damned
Decent gear helped but it was pure bad, then good, luck.

 

[Spectric]

H&S people will of course tell you there's no such thing as a "freak accident".

That is because that cannot be clearly documented which would mean they have no say or control. In the man made world then there is no freak accidents but with nature I think you are into a world of possibilities. What about being struck by lightning, ok you could say that you should not have been outdoors but unless you are under a tree or waving a metal object around then I would say it was a freak accident. If you were on holiday on some island that went up like Krakatoa then unless it was predicted then again just bad luck and a freak accident.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Unlit car parked in the fast lane of an unlit motorway was unusual,
that I hit it at 70 on a motorbike was unlucky,
that I'm still here = my definition of a freak accident !

I dropped mine at 100mph+ when I hit a patch of spilt diesel.

 

[Skeety]

As a new table saw user (had used one under supervision many years ago) I am very conscious of what could happen, kickback, positioning yourself correctly and saw the advert for this (Not on here admittedly) and thought it was a great idea.

I thin thought about it and it's usage, pretty much everything about it would lead you to put fleshy things nearer sharp spinny things. If you lost your balance, slipped etc then you were also heading in the direction of sharp spinny things. I'm sticking with push sticks!

Although fairly new to woodwork my background is\was engineering, machine brakes, lathes, milling machines and all sorts of other dangerous things. I saw someone scalped by a pillar drill as an apprentice which makes you realise a lot of the time by the time you sense something bad is about to happen you cannot do anything about it. In the case of the scalping it was 100% his fault. Long hair, had been bollocked several times for not wearing cap with hairnet etc.

I respect any power tool, or non power tool. Ironically the thing that got me and landed me in surgery was a wheelie bin!

Thanks to the OP for posting!

Jon.

 

[bp122]

As a new table saw user (had used one under supervision many years ago) I am very conscious of what could happen, kickback, positioning yourself correctly and saw the advert for this (Not on here admittedly) and thought it was a great idea.

I thin thought about it and it's usage, pretty much everything about it would lead you to put fleshy things nearer sharp spinny things. If you lost your balance, slipped etc then you were also heading in the direction of sharp spinny things. I'm sticking with push sticks!

Although fairly new to woodwork my background is\was engineering, machine brakes, lathes, milling machines and all sorts of other dangerous things. I saw someone scalped by a pillar drill as an apprentice which makes you realise a lot of the time by the time you sense something bad is about to happen you cannot do anything about it. In the case of the scalping it was 100% his fault. Long hair, had been bollocked several times for not wearing cap with hairnet etc.

I respect any power tool, or non power tool. Ironically the thing that got me and landed me in surgery was a wheelie bin!

Thanks to the OP for posting!

Jon.

And tonight's scary story award goes to.........
,,

@Skeety!!!

Sounds like that guy had it coming!

I heard this good line about pokayokes from a toolmaker I knew, "if it can be put together wrong, it will be, if it can't be, they'll still try!"

Same can be said about some people's profound ability to go out of their way to get hurt "accidentally" that people who operate safely are laughed at and people who don't end up being YouTube stars!

 

[Dabop]

As a new table saw user (had used one under supervision many years ago) I am very conscious of what could happen, kickback, positioning yourself correctly and saw the advert for this (Not on here admittedly) and thought it was a great idea.

I thin thought about it and it's usage, pretty much everything about it would lead you to put fleshy things nearer sharp spinny things. If you lost your balance, slipped etc then you were also heading in the direction of sharp spinny things. I'm sticking with push sticks!

Although fairly new to woodwork my background is\was engineering, machine brakes, lathes, milling machines and all sorts of other dangerous things. I saw someone scalped by a pillar drill as an apprentice which makes you realise a lot of the time by the time you sense something bad is about to happen you cannot do anything about it. In the case of the scalping it was 100% his fault. Long hair, had been bollocked several times for not wearing cap with hairnet etc.

I respect any power tool, or non power tool. Ironically the thing that got me and landed me in surgery was a wheelie bin!

Thanks to the OP for posting!

Jon.

I'm not a fan of long sleeves since my apprentice days in the railways, we had an apprentice using a lathe, wearing our 'industry supplied' overalls- a fairly heavy fabric type like these

These were OLD lathes- originally belt driven from overhead shafts, then converted to electric motors with a basic 'on/off' light-switch style power switch on the motor itself- no Estop or 'kicker bar' in sight lol

He managed to get a sleeve caught in one of the jaws (securely buttoned up mind you) and couldn't reach the switch on the motor, and the lathe literally 'wound' his arm around the lathes chuck, with multiple new 'elbows' involved...
In the end, he literally had those heavy overalls ripped off of him, leaving him basically nude, with a very high pitched voice... (that heavy canvas doesn't tear easy) and needing multiple surgeries on his arm with plates and screws...

One moments lack of awareness.... thats all it takes...

 

[hennebury]

Machines want to kill you! lots of you tube videos in case you have any doubts. My lathe is a 7.5hp DSG, I am pretty sure it wants to rip me apart.

 

[stuart little]

I'm not a fan of long sleeves since my apprentice days in the railways, we had an apprentice using a lathe, wearing our 'industry supplied' overalls- a fairly heavy fabric type like these
View attachment 172916
These were OLD lathes- originally belt driven from overhead shafts, then converted to electric motors with a basic 'on/off' light-switch style power switch on the motor itself- no Estop or 'kicker bar' in sight lol

He managed to get a sleeve caught in one of the jaws (securely buttoned up mind you) and couldn't reach the switch on the motor, and the lathe literally 'wound' his arm around the lathes chuck, with multiple new 'elbows' involved...
In the end, he literally had those heavy overalls ripped off of him, leaving him basically nude, with a very high pitched voice... (that heavy canvas doesn't tear easy) and needing multiple surgeries on his arm with plates and screws...

One moments lack of awareness.... thats all it takes...

I always wear short sleeves, for that reason.