Have you not noticed the big shift in peoples attitude to work, five day weeks are frowned upon and early starts are a no no. They prefer to work from home to avoid the real working enviroment and getting hands dirty is just a horrible thought.
What is wrong with tradesmen?
- Thread starter Phil Pascoe
- Start date
Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:
You are very lucky to have found the trades people you don't want to use before engaging them.
Blame Edward Heath the rot started with the four day week.
The attitude now days is the World owes me a living.
If I go out to work I would have to talk to people, how can I do that and text at the same time?
The Government told me to spend at least three minutes washing my hands, I can't do that and text.
It's all a conspiracy to stop me inanely texting.
Samkilby
Established Member
I work full time employed (cabinetmaker) and do private tradie style work on evenings and weekends, 2nd fix stuff and a bit of fitted furniture etc generally direct to public.
Having had experience in my previous life of dealing with and selling/project management to businesses, I can offer the opinion that dealing with the general public is a massive pita in the main.
I don’t know if plumbers and sparkles experience the same problem, because most of their trade is hidden and mystifying and seems dangerous to the public, but I very often encounter people who want custom work, having never made anything before, and assuming that for example, it will only take a day to make, fit and paint a wall to wall bookshelf and media wall, therefore it should be cheaper than ikea.
I end up working for not great day rates, and I certainly couldn’t afford to run a business/van/ etc on the money.
Time is money ! My time costs money. I may have already visited site for free (maybe quoted off photos of its a 1 day job), so any time I spend pre planning or liaising with yourself or other trades, either you need to pay consultancy time, or I am doing for free (planning of my work alone has most likely been included at quotation stage). Imagine for example at your work, you produced a quotation. Everyone was happy and you and the client agreed on cost. Then the client needed additional consultation and planning. Your boss said - well yes you can do that but I’m not going to pay you anything for it and the client said the same. Would you still do it ?
Is it worth it to the tradie to spend their valuable time discussing this with you ? For example if it’s a single day job or less, how much handholding do you think they should provide for free ?
And now we get to the bottom line really, that in trying to save money you have approached individual trades. If you had gone to a builder, the quote would likely be higher, but they would (hopefully!) take this responsibility on themselves, and their experience would allow them to project manage and schedule the trades and demand what was necessary of them.
By taking the builder out of the equation, you are now the project manager. So if I were in your situation, I would talk to the trades and say “guys, you may need to requote to achieve this, but here is exactly what I expect of you. Please give me a brief outline of the works you plan to undertake, and in what order. I am employing x to install a z, what would be the most appropriate time for them to do that, and how will it affect what you need to do ?”
Having had experience in my previous life of dealing with and selling/project management to businesses, I can offer the opinion that dealing with the general public is a massive pita in the main.
I don’t know if plumbers and sparkles experience the same problem, because most of their trade is hidden and mystifying and seems dangerous to the public, but I very often encounter people who want custom work, having never made anything before, and assuming that for example, it will only take a day to make, fit and paint a wall to wall bookshelf and media wall, therefore it should be cheaper than ikea.
I end up working for not great day rates, and I certainly couldn’t afford to run a business/van/ etc on the money.
Time is money ! My time costs money. I may have already visited site for free (maybe quoted off photos of its a 1 day job), so any time I spend pre planning or liaising with yourself or other trades, either you need to pay consultancy time, or I am doing for free (planning of my work alone has most likely been included at quotation stage). Imagine for example at your work, you produced a quotation. Everyone was happy and you and the client agreed on cost. Then the client needed additional consultation and planning. Your boss said - well yes you can do that but I’m not going to pay you anything for it and the client said the same. Would you still do it ?
Is it worth it to the tradie to spend their valuable time discussing this with you ? For example if it’s a single day job or less, how much handholding do you think they should provide for free ?
And now we get to the bottom line really, that in trying to save money you have approached individual trades. If you had gone to a builder, the quote would likely be higher, but they would (hopefully!) take this responsibility on themselves, and their experience would allow them to project manage and schedule the trades and demand what was necessary of them.
By taking the builder out of the equation, you are now the project manager. So if I were in your situation, I would talk to the trades and say “guys, you may need to requote to achieve this, but here is exactly what I expect of you. Please give me a brief outline of the works you plan to undertake, and in what order. I am employing x to install a z, what would be the most appropriate time for them to do that, and how will it affect what you need to do ?”
The terms 'tradesmen' and 'engineer' are very loose ones these days. It seems anyone can be one.
Yes, but they don't answer my messages.
Draw up a Gantt chart and send it to them, with a covering letter saying "please respond to this within the next ****days or I will assume you are not interested in procuring or carrying out this work", if they then don't reply you have had a lucky escape.
I think if you do things like that, a lot of trades people would think you're going to be a hassle client and move on. Lets face it, we all like the least possible hassle in our work. From my experience, a lot of trades people don't like dealing with people who know what makes a good job or challenge them on stated costs for things when you know the rough price of stuff.
Getting a decent tradesman who will deliver the job to your expectations is just a total nightmare, what makes it worse is that you know the standards you deliver in your own trade and expect the same from others. One giveaway is when you contact them for a lead time, if they say I can be round next week then maybe no one else uses them but if they say I am busy for the next 8 weeks then you have some idea of how many do use them. With this you do need to factor in the cost, maybe no one uses them as they are the most expensive but could also be very good. Look at how people buy cheap furnature rather than looking for quality so maybe they also employ trades on just cost.
I would suggest they are the ones to avoid, they are looking for mugs with whom they can get away with substandard work and make a fast buck. I always used to find that engaging with the customer and explaining things that they may have had some idea about or preconception made for customers who would use you again, trying to keep them in the dark just makes them think you are taking them for a ride.
I could never understand that attitude, knowing when you are needed and the time period expected to carry out your work with the pre and following trades can only be a good thing, if you arrive and the works are not ready for you it is not unreasonable to apply for costs, known as dayworks in my day, but then I always employed companies to carry out works under the JCT form of contract not joe from down the pub.
user 43410
Member
Often it is a case of the old spinning dinner plates on sticks situation, lack of materials, design briefs going wrong, interlinking with other trades on jobs, Explaining the situation by the crafts people on over runs would help, being a bit 'bolshie ' only ensures reluctance to return for other possible work in the future or inflated quotations ?
glenfield2
Established Member
This thread has been a fascinating read. We’ve experienced all the issues over the years!
We were having pretty major work done on our house while living on our canal boat. Our neighbour said ‘we always knew you were coming home as a flurry of vans would turn up.’ Result: rushed, slapdash work with problems we are still troubled by.
Latest run in with another one who gave us a fixed price for a job, I paid in stages - only to find it wasn’t being passed on when the unpaid scaffolders refused to take their stuff down.
He was the classic ‘tell them what they want to hear even if it’s not true’ merchant. And another user of the seemingly well used ‘family bereavement’ reason for not turning up.
This random not turning up or arriving late gets me too. A day rate is surely for a days work not getting on site at 10 after taking the kids to school and driving to the job?
Currently our flood damaged house is having the plaster stripped - ‘a three day job’. Ah but not including the 11am start after loading the van and travelling, the missing days through ‘off sick’ or just not turning up. It might be done in a week. I’m not holding my breath.
Our best builder was our first many years ago. It was a big open ended restoration job. He stated all his rates in advance and itemised all his expenditure each week. He also left us a list of DIY work to do each weekend.
We were having pretty major work done on our house while living on our canal boat. Our neighbour said ‘we always knew you were coming home as a flurry of vans would turn up.’ Result: rushed, slapdash work with problems we are still troubled by.
Latest run in with another one who gave us a fixed price for a job, I paid in stages - only to find it wasn’t being passed on when the unpaid scaffolders refused to take their stuff down.
He was the classic ‘tell them what they want to hear even if it’s not true’ merchant. And another user of the seemingly well used ‘family bereavement’ reason for not turning up.
This random not turning up or arriving late gets me too. A day rate is surely for a days work not getting on site at 10 after taking the kids to school and driving to the job?
Currently our flood damaged house is having the plaster stripped - ‘a three day job’. Ah but not including the 11am start after loading the van and travelling, the missing days through ‘off sick’ or just not turning up. It might be done in a week. I’m not holding my breath.
Our best builder was our first many years ago. It was a big open ended restoration job. He stated all his rates in advance and itemised all his expenditure each week. He also left us a list of DIY work to do each weekend.
planesleuth
Established Member
My experience is thus. All tradesmen, since covid it seems (maybe brexit), charge far too much labour rate, even given the time they must allow for site visit and quoting. Many of them are arrogant and untidy and again, since covid, many, many of them are obviously untrained idiots from other professions thinking that they can do the job. You can do the job with modern expensive tools but you cannot do the job without the depth of knowledge. Apprenticeship is essential. Time served is non negotiable. So if you have loads of money you inherited or, earned, from your fancy IT job a few years back and now think you can buy your way into our homes, then think again! If you write up here explaining how good or hard done by you are then I am looking forward to the day of reckoning.....and.... It will come!! Zaniya.
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
It's not just self employed tradesmen, large companies in the construction industry are just as bad and over promising and under delivering and taking on jobs that they are unqualified for are endemic.
It seems that bull$h!t rules the day everywhere.
It seems that bull$h!t rules the day everywhere.
Mediocre "builders" around here (probably still the poorest area in the Country) think themselves hard done by if they're only getting £25 an hour.
Doug71
Established Member
I know there are some dodgy tradesmen out there but there are also some good ones.
I have started doing more work at customers houses and less in the workshop even though it's less efficient. I might have spent 2 hours in the workshop first thing in the morning getting stuff ready then turn up on site at 10am only to be greeted with "Afternoon" or asked if I slept in. I now do more stuff on site so the customer sees me actually doing it even though it might take longer and cost them more.
If you are self employed £25 per hour does not give you much of a wage.....
I have started doing more work at customers houses and less in the workshop even though it's less efficient. I might have spent 2 hours in the workshop first thing in the morning getting stuff ready then turn up on site at 10am only to be greeted with "Afternoon" or asked if I slept in. I now do more stuff on site so the customer sees me actually doing it even though it might take longer and cost them more.
If you are self employed £25 per hour does not give you much of a wage.....
It is strange how people complain about the hours trades people keep. Society has moved on from 30+ years ago - a family where only one parent works is now a very small minority so it's not surprising that trades people also have to juggle child care responsibilities and plan their day around it. If they or someone in their family needs an appointment arranging with the GP etc then these days that takes 30 minutes of redialling on the phone just to sort it.
As long as you find someone good, I'm not too fussed about the hours they keep. And good people don't want to make a job take a long time - they're organised, get it done and explain reasons for delays along the way.
It is amazing how many full time professionals now enjoy flexible working, work from home etc. and have no problem doing the school run, taking time out for appointments (GP, dentist, opticians) but seem to think trades people don't need to do that and should magically be at their house by 8am everyday and not leave until 5pm.
I had an electrician turn up to quote for an EV charger + my workshop on Saturday. He asked if he could come at 7.30am as he wanted to then spend the rest of the day with his family which is fine with me as I'm up 6.30 most days. Young(er) guy like me and enjoys communicating via text - suits me fine. He had some kind of quote app on his phone and everything went on as a line item, took photos - straight into the app, e-mail provided and quote will come through on Monday. Even told me his calendar / availability and said he only had 1 spot left before Christmas.
Gives so much more confidence than the guys who turn up and write stuff down on a scrap of paper and then just phone you with a number and mention offhand about a cash price and saving money... hmm!
So anyway, have some more sympathy for the trades, the cost of living and their personal lives and just pay more for the good ones (I appreciate there are still plenty of bad ones who try to charge high prices as well, so you have to filter them out) - my wife & I already agreed this electrician will be getting the work without any other quotes
As long as you find someone good, I'm not too fussed about the hours they keep. And good people don't want to make a job take a long time - they're organised, get it done and explain reasons for delays along the way.
It is amazing how many full time professionals now enjoy flexible working, work from home etc. and have no problem doing the school run, taking time out for appointments (GP, dentist, opticians) but seem to think trades people don't need to do that and should magically be at their house by 8am everyday and not leave until 5pm.
I had an electrician turn up to quote for an EV charger + my workshop on Saturday. He asked if he could come at 7.30am as he wanted to then spend the rest of the day with his family which is fine with me as I'm up 6.30 most days. Young(er) guy like me and enjoys communicating via text - suits me fine. He had some kind of quote app on his phone and everything went on as a line item, took photos - straight into the app, e-mail provided and quote will come through on Monday. Even told me his calendar / availability and said he only had 1 spot left before Christmas.
Gives so much more confidence than the guys who turn up and write stuff down on a scrap of paper and then just phone you with a number and mention offhand about a cash price and saving money... hmm!
So anyway, have some more sympathy for the trades, the cost of living and their personal lives and just pay more for the good ones (I appreciate there are still plenty of bad ones who try to charge high prices as well, so you have to filter them out) - my wife & I already agreed this electrician will be getting the work without any other quotes
Where, pray, is this magical entity?
Similar threads
