Titanic

[mwinfrance]

Nothing against extreme sports ( ex-parachutist here , free- fall, military ( breifly ) and civvie, like dad before me ..want a wingsuit..SWMBO says I'm too old )..but the Titan "vessel" wasn't about sport. rescue from a failed "chute" is not impossible, but certainly doesn't happen often.

ps..they weren't "explorers" either..plenty had been there before them..."looky loos" is what they were... mass grave ghouls.

 

[Spectric]

Is one of the sayings something like you almost need to die to know you are alive, could be a french free climber. @Sideways is right in that some people love doing something so much that they just accept the hazards and hope the risk is not realised. This is the problem with modern motorsports where the drivers cannot accept the hazards and go all out to make it super safe and killed off the original thrill of the sport. Look at group B rallying, the kink in the Mulsane used to be straight at Le Mans and F1 as all have tamed the sport.

 

[mwinfrance]

Is one of the sayings something like you almost need to die to know you are alive, could be a french free climber. @Sideways is right in that some people love doing something so much that they just accept the hazards and hope the risk is not realised. This is the problem with modern motorsports where the drivers cannot accept the hazards and go all out to make it super safe and killed off the original thrill of the sport. Look at group B rallying, the kink in the Mulsane used to be straight at Le Mans and F1 as all have tamed the sport.

The original "thrill" of the sport ?
Ah..one of those people who watches motor sports in anticipation of an accident, possibly fatal..

A spectator ..not a driver or rider.

I suppose that when one jumps..there are always some on the ground , watching hoping for the "thrill" that your chute doesn't open, or "candles".

ghouls..."eyes wide shut" eh..

 

[Jacob]

Is one of the sayings something like you almost need to die to know you are alive, could be a french free climber. @Sideways is right in that some people love doing something so much that they just accept the hazards and hope the risk is not realised. This is the problem with modern motorsports where the drivers cannot accept the hazards and go all out to make it super safe and killed off the original thrill of the sport.

Same with all those gladiators who don't want to fight bears and tigers. Really boring!
Even bull-fighting is not what it was when ar worra lad!

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Some folk are motivated by that which many (including me) would not contemplate - eg: extremes of mountaineering, free climbing, mountain biking, motor racing. Other more common sports carry a material risk of very serious injury - eg: rugby, boxing, horse riding, motorcycling.

Folk are not rational machines carefully assessing risks before engaging in any activity - they either don't think, assume the risk relates to others, or the experience dominates concerns over safety.

The Titanic incident is little different - the excitement of diving to such a depth exceeded rational considerations of the probability of equipment failure. They paid the price.

I would defend the rights of all to make their own decisions about the risks they undertake.

A "Titanic" incident may likely be repeated in commercial space flight - a hostile environment in which equipment failure is likely terminal. SpaceX apparently estimate the cost per launch at ~$100m vs NASA at $2bn - 20 times as much.

To what extent is SpaceX under-engineered or tested - or is NASA wating huge amounts, or Elon Musk hugely efficient?

 

[KJ2]

Unfortunately , the reason why so much effort is being made to rescue these 1diots as opposed to the poor people dying weekly in the med, is either (1) because these people could pay the cost of the rescue and not notice it. Either that or (2) rich peoples lives are considered to be worth more ( and thus more worth saving ) than the lives of poor people.
Probably , which shows how immoral the world is (2)

Also interesting is the wall to wall news coverage when compared with last week's loss of some 750 lives.

 

[Jacob]

.....

I would defend the rights of all to make their own decisions about the risks they undertake.

They were carrying three tourists and arguably are responsible for their deaths, not least because they appear to have ignored a lot of safety advice - as did the captain of the Titanic itself!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...victims-titan-missing-submersible-latest-news
It's not all over yet!

 

[Fergie 307]

I'm very intrigued why Robert Ballard, the guy who discovered the Titanic has still not said anything to the press about these events. Even James Cameron has made a statement over the whole thing now.

I think it's all inappropriate diving down to such depths to gawp at a tragedy and someone was making money out of this too. Research to those depths, to learn things yes I'm all for but when you hear of people diving down there to get married it's all very distasteful money making exercise. Then again it seems everyone else has made money out of this disaster one way or another.

Ballard wanted to keep the exact location of the wreck a secret, to avoid it being plundered and so on, exactly what has happened. So really the comment he might be most likely to make would be I told you so.

 

[Noel]

Ballard wanted to keep the exact location of the wreck a secret, to avoid it being plundered and so on, exactly what has happened. So really the comment he might be most likely to make would be I told you so.

Would certainly agree with Ballard.
A while ago some one in my family found out we had a distant relative who was on the ship. Far as I recall she didn't survive.

 

[Fergie 307]

The original "thrill" of the sport ?
Ah..one of those people who watches motor sports in anticipation of an accident, possibly fatal..

A spectator ..not a driver or rider.

I suppose that when one jumps..there are always some on the ground , watching hoping for the "thrill" that your chute doesn't open, or "candles".

ghouls..."eyes wide shut" eh..

Group B rallying was quite rightly ended because the cars had just become too powerful for the courses in many cases. When accidents occurred the greater speeds made the consequences much worse, with a number of cases of multiple fatalities amongst spectators. I agree with you about Le Mans, the huge fences have ruined it from a spectators point of view, in my opinion anyway. I went every year for many years. And yes the cars travelling down Mulsanne at 200 mph were quite a sight. Of course they were doing over 180 back in the 50's, on skinny tyres and ,with the exception of the Jaguars alone initially, drum brakes! So the excessive speed argument for putting in the kink is a bit dubious to my mind. It's also worth remembering that when Hawthorn won for example, he had driven the car for 18 of the 24 hours of I remember correctly, and that was fairly normal in those days. I think the motivation for the drivers and riders is to pit your skill against the course, and your competitors, the most extreme example being the Isle Of Man TT. I certainly don't watch it in the hope of a crash. As a motorcyclist myself I watch it to frankly marvel at the skill, and sheer balls, of the riders. If you have never ridden a powerful bike then I can quite understand how the attraction of it would escape you, but if you have then I think you can totally get what motivates them.

 

[mwinfrance]

I have had many powerfull motorcycles and cars..and have pushed them hard and fast..to the point where my mates when I had bikes would not ride pillion with me as they considered I was waaay too crazy..I agree with you re the appeal and skill .But I'm certain ( proof in this thread too ) that for many spectators who have never ridden or driven fast powerful machines that the "thrill" is in the anticipation of the blood , injury or death of others.

I was at many races UK and France..at the last Bol d’Or ( Le Castellet ) in 1999 ( I was working *) before it shut until 2015

*I had a custom paint and bodywork business in the south of France..( airbrush artwork and trick paints and "mods" inc some frame, engine and exhaust work ) signs, customising on bikes, cars, trucks, boats, circus stuff, fairground attractions etc.Big sculptures on the fairground stuff , creation and repairs, animatronics. atelier was over 300sq metres with 3 hectares of space around it for the big stuff .

 

[benitod]

Crazy rich people.
To this time everything shall be finished.
Recently I read a news saying that a Deutsch company is selling and promoting adventure tourism for crossing "El Tapon del Dairen" an intricate wood between Colombia and Panama that is used for immigrants that are running away from their countries searching for a new and better life. Many of them have lost their lives during the desperate travel.

 

[Doris]

Ballard wanted to keep the exact location of the wreck a secret, to avoid it being plundered and so on, exactly what has happened. So really the comment he might be most likely to make would be I told you so.

Isn't that what all these other diving experts who warned the CEO of Oceangate coming out of the woodwork have been saying though? "We told you so!"

I think personally out of all the people involved with the Titanic, his words are worth more than the rest of them and he should speak out about this matter anyway.

 

[Cozzer]

I'm sure we'll be hearing cautionary stories about "dark Tourism" for weeks.
Once people are convinced to the degree where they sign on the dotted line, eliminating all responsibility on behalf of the tour company, this will continue.
Everest, Chernobyl, Titanic and so on
Sad

Interview with a previous "tourist". Note his comments about "death" being mentioned three times on page one of the waiver...




Let's be honest - as soon as the news broke here on Monday, everybody "knew" they were dead. It's just that nobody wanted to say so.
That deep, nothing on hand to rescue them, x hours of air, bolted in from the outside.....

 

[Jacob]

Crazy rich people.
To this time everything shall be finished.
Recently I read a news saying that a Deutsch company is selling and promoting adventure tourism for crossing "El Tapon del Dairen" an intricate wood between Colombia and Panama that is used for immigrants that are running away from their countries searching for a new and better life. Many of them have lost their lives during the desperate travel.

Actually it's the sort of adventurous trip a well equipped and fit outdoor team would manage quite safely.
Most of the migrants are neither but are desperate to escape from their previous lives.
Maybe a few of the wealthy adventurers would help them on their way?

 

[Bingy man]

Well the inevitable has happened and 5 people have lost their lives and they of course leave behind moms and dads wives and girlfriends, sons and daughters etc to grieve and make sense of it all. With all their combined millions they went past the point of no return and experienced what most of us would never want to know and that is how those poor souls felt as their unsinkable liner sank to the depths taking them with it . Hundreds of years from now they will still be talking about the titanic disaster but I doubt very much these 5 will get a mention after a year or two . Also those brave and fearless people that decide to climb Everest for their own satisfaction or relatives of the holocaust that feel the need to visit the various concentration camps where their loved ones perished for some sort of closure cannot be compared to what these 5 set out to do . There of course will always be exceptions such as 911 where the site of the wtc has been turned into a national site for all affected to pay their respects. Nobody should want to go the killing fields of Vietnam or the mass graves left by civil war and other atrocities unless you lost loved ones or friends and feel the need to pay your respects to those you have lost.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Well the inevitable has happened and 5 people have lost their lives and they of course leave behind moms and dads wives and girlfriends, sons and daughters etc to grieve and make sense of it all. With all their combined millions they went past the point of no return and experienced what most of us would never want to know and that is how those poor souls felt as their unsinkable liner sank to the depths taking them with it . Hundreds of years from now they will still be talking about the titanic disaster but I doubt very much these 5 will get a mention after a year or two . Also those brave and fearless people that decide to climb Everest for their own satisfaction or relatives of the holocaust that feel the need to visit the various concentration camps where their loved ones perished for some sort of closure cannot be compared to what these 5 set out to do . There of course will always be exceptions such as 911 where the site of the wtc has been turned into a national site for all affected to pay their respects. Nobody should want to go the killing fields of Vietnam or the mass graves left by civil war and other atrocities unless you lost loved ones or friends and feel the need to pay your respects to those you have lost.

I agree with the sentiment of what you say but the reason the holocaust death camps and the killing fields are maintained is so that visitors reflect on how these things were allowed to happen. As such I think they serve a purpose and even those without a direct connection should visit. Obviously visiting to learn and understand is different to treating it as a theme park.

 

[JimJay]

It's been said that the pressure at that depth is 340 times atmospheric pressure at sea level (14.7 lbs/sq inch). Hence, that's 14.7 x 340 = 4,998 psi. I'm not a physicist, but I recall from my far off schooldays that a sphere can withstand far more pressure than a cube or a cylinder. The science teacher explained that was why, in the 1930s, the 'Bathesphere' was designed as such.

Its purpose was to enable marine biologists to observe deep-sea creatures in their native environment. The dives set several consecutive world records for the deepest dive ever performed by a human. The record set by the deepest of these, to a depth of 3,028 ft (923 m) on August 15, 1934. The initial design was to be cylindrical, but it was realised that a cylinder would not withstand the pressure, so a sphere was decided upon.

Bathysphere - Wikipedia

When I saw pictures of the the ill-fated craft before news that it had imploded, I thought then, why a cylinder - not a sphere, to descend to ten times the depth of the Bathysphere? Pretty obvious really - you can house more people in a tube than a sphere and a tube is easier to construct, so commercial considerations ranked higher than physics. I dare say there will be talk about attempts to recover the bodies. It only takes a moment to realise what happens to a human body subjected to 5,000 PSI.

Apart from which, I think this picture says it all:

I don't think that the picture says very much, apart from it being more woke tosh. The rescue attempts were a very useful opportunity to test the available technology and techniques, and to see just how far beyond the design limitations they could be pushed if needed. The international interest was understandable, given the situation and circumstances - and no doubt there was some element of Schadenfreude involved.
Apart from that, the two happenings bore some similarities: there were people who had chosen to put themselves (and part of their family) in a dangerous situation, and the gamble hadn't panned out how they'd hoped. One was a unique situation, which makes it newsworthy - the other is an everyday one, which leads to compassion fatigue. One group had chosen to trust their lives and those of their families to criminals, knowing that the laws of the sea involve other people providing them with a tax-payer-funded taxi service - the odds of survival were decidedly on their side; the other was composed of a small group of rich people who were well aware that they were risking their lives and that rescue was very unlikely.

 

[Spectric]

I agree with the sentiment of what you say but the reason the holocaust death camps and the killing fields are maintained is so that visitors reflect on how these things were allowed to happen.

That applies to everything in history, you cannot change history by removing anything that can be related such as names and statues like some people want to do today, instead these should be accepted as reminders of the past and that history is something we should learn from even if that does seem to be difficult for us humans.

 

[Spectric]

The reason a spherical object can resist more pressure is I believe something to do with Pascals law. If you think in 2D terms and apply a pressure to a circle, all the lines of force meet in the centre, apply this to a sphere and again they all meet at a central point so effectively the pressure applied is evenly distributed.