"Table Saw Accident Week"

[Mikey R]

I remain constantly amazed at the Spams and their approach to machinery guarding.

Ive also read very often on US forums that the table saw is THE most important tool in the 'shop and should be the first purchase. How many new untrained woodworkers are putting themselves at extreme risk of flying worpieces and severed digits? Maybe even without knowing the risks?

Ive got no intention of ever owning one - I just cant see how the benefits outweigh the risks for what I intend to do.

 

[dickm]

The reason US woodworkers don't need to bother about safety is because health care there is so much better than the terrible socialised systems in the UK and the like.........

Or so they say :?

 

[devonwoody]

The reason US woodworkers don't need to bother about safety is because health care there is so much better than the terrible socialised systems in the UK and the like.........

Or so they say :?

For me an my wife it has been a great success, we are both alive and reasonably well after successful free treatment and great speed and care provided.

So I assume the American medical system is frightened of our system and their financial rewards being depreciated.

 

[FatFreddysCat]

Strikes me that there's a lot of talk about "thinking things through" and using "common sense", whatever that is, when getting a bit of istruction on a course or reading a British book on the subject might be more useful. How can you think things through adequately if you don't know the principles of safe wood maching? :roll: Been a bit busy on the saw myself this morning cutting up MDF for three display stands we're building. 24 sheets of 18mm in 3 hours with nery a finger near the blade. But then I almost always use the guards and a push stick...... :lol:

 

[TheTiddles]

The USA will never have a healthcare system for everyone as the idea of paying that much tax is totally alien to them, a bit like leaving the guards on the table saw, still, keeps us ammused

Aidan

 

[dickm]

Got a book by Danny Proulx from the library last week on "jigs and fixtures". Obviously American, and begins with the usual "guards have been removed for photographing only" caveat. Then goes on to detail various circular saw ("table saw" to them) jigs where it would be physically impossible to use the guards. And no riving knife on the saw. I hate to think what a novice might do thinking these jigs were "safe".

 

[woodbloke]

Part of the issue I think is that many 'murrican tablesaurs are designed and made with grooves either side of the blade making it easier to fit a variety of these dangerous jigs (the Deft saw is a case in point) that rely on both tracks - Rob

 

[Steve Maskery]

I did a review of the Danny Proulx book for GW a few years ago, so I know what you mean. Good photos, good jigs, badly used.

The thing a bout using a TS for anything other than ripping timber is that the average crown guard is totally unsuitable, and so, because the saw is a very useful and versatile machine, the guard gets taken off and never put back on.

That doesn't make the jig dangerous, it makes the operation dangerous.

I have a selection of different guards for different jobs, and the crown guard is never on my saw.

I have a home-made SUVA-style guard which is on most of the time. It's good, but I can improve it, it's on my TUIT list. It mounts on the far right of the rear rail and is supported by a shoe on my rip fence.

I have a magnetic free-standing guard which I use with cross-cut sleds and my tenon jig, and my tenon jig has guards actually built in to the fabric of the jig.

I also have a large sheet of PolyC for big-reach jobs. I hardly ever use that, it's a bit too flimsy for my liking.

My point is that whatever you are doing, there is usually away to guard it. And if you can't, then you shouldn't be doing it.

I think I'm going to have to make a YouTube shortie of my setup.

S

 

[dickm]

I did a review of the Danny Proulx book for GW a few years ago, so I know what you mean. Good photos, good jigs, badly used.

I have a magnetic free-standing guard which I use with cross-cut sleds and my tenon jig, and my tenon jig has guards actually built in to the fabric of the jig.
I think I'm going to have to make a YouTube shortie of my setup.

Not convinced they were even good jigs in many cases...

The idea of a magnetic guard is a nice one for those who can afford CI tables . Not much use on my alloy Lurem!

I think a video (or even stills) of your set-up would be great. If it were stills, it might even be worth making it another sticky for this thread.

 

[maltrout512]

Came across this one,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCIbvIatBg8

This guy is a total P...K . You want to read the comments. They all seem to be as stupid.

 

[devonwoody]

Seeing this thread again (haven't looked at any of the links )

I occasionally use a very thin piece of timber (around 6mm thick) to push timber between the fence and the blade. I have never touched the spinning blade with a push stick, WHAT HAPPENS if you do?

 

[jimi43]

I have two table saws a bandsaw and a scroll saw which have diminishing safety respect for obvious reasons.

I think the standard riving knife type guards are a nightmare so mine are off although my INCA has the SUVA and it is there all the time BECAUSE it does not get in the way and it LOOKS like it can do the job.

What I do take care about is the riving knife and I think this is where the Americans fall down with many of their accidents...particularly the kickback accidents.

Not to teach grandads to suck eggs but there may be a few novices around here who would benefit from the reasons WHY a riving knife is vital and should not be removed. Also that it should be set up correctly.

A riving knife MUST be of the correct thickness. It must be as close to halfway thicker than the size of the kerf and blade base thicknesses.

This is not always evident and because people often change blades, might have been ok when the stock blade was set up but not when a replacement is used.

Example: If a blade has a spec of 1.8mm for the blade base and 2.6mm for the kerf then this is ideally suited to a riving knife of 2.1mm thickness

The idea is that when the kerf (teeth) cut, they create a channel in the wood of that thickness. This passes either side of the riving knife as the stock is pushed forward. If the stock has stress in it or you move it laterally, this channel will want to close up. This closing up will eventually meet the riving knife which should keep it from further closing.

As the riving knife is thicker than the actual blade base thickness the stock does not clamp the blade, the major cause of kickback.

Now take the scenario where the blade used is thicker than the riving knife.

In this case when the stock channel closes it still clamps the blade and therefore the riving knife is rendered useless.

Let's take the scenario where the kerf is narrower than the riving knife...the channel crashes into the riving knife and so people tend to remove the riving knife...rendering it useless as it does not work in the drawer!!!

So....when buying a replacement blade ensure you get the correct kerf/base thicknesses!

Also - make sure that the riving knife is lined up with the blade...this is equally as important.

I apologise to the experts here in this explanation and "we know this" guys and gals....this is aimed at the novice who may not realise this.

Jim

 

[newt]

I have two table saws a bandsaw and a scroll saw which have diminishing safety respect for obvious reasons.

I think the standard riving knife type guards are a nightmare so mine are off although my INCA has the SUVA and it is there all the time BECAUSE it does not get in the way and it LOOKS like it can do the job.

What I do take care about is the riving knife and I think this is where the Americans fall down with many of their accidents...particularly the kickback accidents.

Not to teach grandads to suck eggs but there may be a few novices around here who would benefit from the reasons WHY a riving knife is vital and should not be removed. Also that it should be set up correctly.

A riving knife MUST be of the correct thickness. It must be as close to halfway thicker than the size of the kerf and blade base thicknesses.

This is not always evident and because people often change blades, might have been ok when the stock blade was set up but not when a replacement is used.

Example: If a blade has a spec of 1.8mm for the blade base and 2.6mm for the kerf then this is ideally suited to a riving knife of 2.1mm thickness

The idea is that when the kerf (teeth) cut, they create a channel in the wood of that thickness. This passes either side of the riving knife as the stock is pushed forward. If the stock has stress in it or you move it laterally, this channel will want to close up. This closing up will eventually meet the riving knife which should keep it from further closing.

As the riving knife is thicker than the actual blade base thickness the stock does not clamp the blade, the major cause of kickback.

Now take the scenario where the blade used is thicker than the riving knife.

In this case when the stock channel closes it still clamps the blade and therefore the riving knife is rendered useless.

Let's take the scenario where the kerf is narrower than the riving knife...the channel crashes into the riving knife and so people tend to remove the riving knife...rendering it useless as it does not work in the drawer!!!

So....when buying a replacement blade ensure you get the correct kerf/base thicknesses!

Also - make sure that the riving knife is lined up with the blade...this is equally as important.

I apologise to the experts here in this explanation and "we know this" guys and gals....this is aimed at the novice who may not realise this.

Jim

I guess folk need to use different thickness blades on their saws for certain jobs, therefore this is one reason that the RK is taken off. The only solution for that would all blades with a standard kerf, cant see that happening somehow. Edit I should say I never remove mine.

 

[head clansman]

hi

I've said it here before and I'll probably say agin , pinkies only grow once. :shock: the smiley says shock but i t wont be me who shocked it will be you when those guards you know should be on at all time aren't when that lump of flesh hit you smack in the face splattering you from head to toe in blood you 'll then think wish I had listen to all those others . hc :x :x :x think about it guys you know it makes sense be cool 8) 8)

 

[jimi43]

I guess folk need to use different thickness blades on their saws for certain jobs, therefore this is one reason that the RK is taken off. The only solution for that would all blades with a standard kerf, cant see that happening somehow.

Hi Newt

That would be possible but to be honest I change my blades because I need to rip or crosscut and both are chosen with the correct kerf/blade dimensions to suit the saw.

This is clearly indicated in the safety instructions and the reasons given.

The only situation I can see this changing is if I were to use a dado set..which I wouldn't be happy with. If I need to cut dados I move the stock....with a sliding table this is easy for me. In fact I just cut some tenons on my Scheppach to build a bench and they came out fine and repeatable.

I think that jigs tend to be the prime cause of accidents but with care in design I don't see this being a problem. Aside from kickback the main cause of severed fingers is a slip which tends to come after stress relief. When stock gets stuck for some reason...knots etc...then pushing harder nearer the blade when it gives in smooth stock makes you fall forward.... :roll:

I ALWAYS stand to the side...use a push rod that reaches right over the pre-bed to the blade and don't reach forward....accident waiting to happen there!

When I got my "big" saw...I made sure I got the sliding mitre table...I think this prevents a huge amount of accident situations as you hold the stock against the perpendicular fence nowhere near the blade.

Jim

 

[jimi43]

hi

I've said it here before and I'll probably say agin , pinkies only grow once. :shock: the smiley says shock but i t wont be me who shocked it will be you when those guards you know should be on at all time aren't when that lump of flesh hit you smack in the face splattering you from head to toe in blood you 'll then think wish I had listen to all those others . hc :x :x :x think about it guys you know it makes sense be cool 8) 8)

I think the cheap "riving knife" type guards are more dangerous than not having one and they are no good when you want to run dados or channels.

I am considering a "SUVA" type one...because I want a guard over the blade - I just don't want it to get in the way. I am tinkering with some finger guides too...after all - I use them all the time on the table router perfectly naturally so why not on the table saw?

A lot of accidents are caused by rushing....not bothering to set things up properly and having to take a guard on and off a riving knife mount is one situation where "can't be bothered" occurs.

It frightens me greatly that the cheaper B&Q type table saws are on sale to DIYers...really frightens me.

Jim

 

[Niki]

Aside from kickback the main cause of severed fingers is a slip which tends to come after stress relief. When stock gets stuck for some reason...knots etc...then pushing harder nearer the blade when it gives in smooth stock makes you fall forward.... :roll:

I ALWAYS stand to the side...use a push rod that reaches right over the pre-bed to the blade and don't reach forward....accident waiting to happen there!
Jim

Hi Jim

Standing on the side is ok but, which side...

Please have a look at this site and you'll see that there are 2 kinds of kickback....
http://www.waterfront-woods.com/Article ... blesaw.htm

1.Back-side kickback

2. Over-the-top kickback

As for the Back-side kickback, there are no problems...the workpiece is coming directly back to the operator and we know where to stand

It is the Over-the-top kickback that is confusing me...as you will see on the following video, the workpiece is lifted up - on top of the blade - turned (you can see the marks) Anti-clockwise and propelled to the left side of the blade and, if the operator is there....well...
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/910584/ta ... nstration/

I'm standing at any convenient place (that I can stand stabilized) but always using the Riving Knife, featherboard, the crown guard - I belive that the crown guard connecting bolt (to the guard) will reduce the intensity of the kickback by not letting the workpiece to climb on the blade top...

And of course, a short fence extending up to the blade centre (Arbor)...

I also use "High blade" but that's personal...

I set the fence almost to the Arbor center (the hole that you see on the table near the blade center is for pushing a pin to lock the Arbor for blade change).
As you noticed, I love "high blade" for ripping solid wood. It's easier on the motor, the feed rate is faster and the cut is cleaner without burn marks but of course, I use the blade guard that covers this "meat and bones slicer" totally.

Ready to cut...please note that I'm using the "Low fence" even though the board is only 30mm thick.
It gives me more "open area" and actually the "High fence" in not needed even if the board was 3" except in the case of re-sawing (that I never did on the TS)

I'm still using my hand to push the board from the end

But that's the point that I revert to push stick

Last push.....

Done...please note where is my hand when the cut is finished...

As you can see, no burn marks even though I use 60 tooth blade...

Sometimes, I'm using 80T or even 100T blade for ripping (the Makita on the pic)...

Regards
niki

 

[JoinerySolutions]

One of the main causes of kickback demonstrated in the over the top bit is when the fence is not parallel to the blade. The workpiece jambs tight against the back of the blade and the teeth hit it at a flat angle thus slinging it willy nilly.
To prevent this is simple, a/ set the machine up correctly b/ if the workpiece starts to bind STOP PUSHING IT STOP the machine.
Check if it is the set up or the stresses in the timber (man made boards can suffer this too) that are the cause.

Another one I have seen is when people try to cross cut say a piece 100x 25x620 down to 600, and the only contact the wood has with the fence is 100mm! Laziness in setting up the miter slide or sliding fence stops cause this one.
Blades should also not be left at full height when cutting thin stock, this only serves to present the teeth to the material at an exaggerated angle, causing stress to the teeth and reducing performance. Saw teeth are designed to slice not hack out lumps of wood.
Just my tuppence worth.

 

[devonwoody]

Is there a weight or size where there is no kickback to worry about.

I'm thinking perhaps a 12" wide board x 2" thick 6ft long would need considerable power applied to kick back?

Or it will still happen and be heavier. :roll:

 

[jimi43]

Hi Niki

Those guides (and the pictures) are superb.

Really clever and you would have to have something VERY serious to go wrong there mate!

Wonderful....this is why I like this site...even though you think you are safe enough there is ALWAYS a better way of doing it.

As for binding with non-parallel fences...I omitted to say that this was a critical setup pre-requisite...bloody dangerous otherwise.

Thanks for reminding us.

Jim