Titus A Duxass
Established Member
Just seal up the gaps with a temporary substance like plasticine which can be easily removed.
You could probably do it with masking tape.
You could probably do it with masking tape.
Super Dust Deputy Cyclone
- Thread starter Blister
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Aled Dafis
Established Member
Seeing as you have the cyclone, would it be cheeky to ask for you to measure it up and post some dimensions?
Cheers
Aled :wink:
Cheers
Aled :wink:
Hi Aled. I can't help on the Oneida stuff, but here's the link to Bill Pentz's dust collection pages from the US which if you click on the 'cyclone plan' link in the table at the top of the page will bring you to fully dimensioned drawings for his very well regarded DIY cyclone design: http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm
Work down the text and also check out the drawing and you'll find the approach he suggests for scaling the design to suit lower HP fans than the standard 5HP model he suggests for largish ducted systems. He also offered a miniature option to minimise filter blinding on shop vacuums (pictures here: http://www.gallery2.clearvuecyclones.com/v/Mini+CV06/ see notes on this below) - and confirms that it too delivers very high % separation performance on very fine dust.
Here's some info on scaling down to the vacuum size: http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Bullent ... light=cv06 More here: http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclon ... loneSizing
The cyclone is widely reported as performing extremely well (it'd better as I'm mid install on a fullsize system), and has (in a smaller vacuum focused size) been tested for efficiency of dust separation by one of the US universities: http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/index.p ... =page&id=4 (this is the report on the Clear Vue site - they are the company he has approved to offer the design commercially)
Clear Vue were reportedly threatened with legalities if they continued to sell the mini model for vacuum applications, and as a small company they couldn't risk it - so it's DIY only. (the whole thing got pretty controversial, and quite a few in the US were hugely unimpressed since the Pentz design was reportedly around before the other guys)
This is the link to the home page on the Pentz/Clear Vue user's forum http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Bullentin/index.php - lots of photo installs, technical questions answered and more or less universally positive feedback.
There's an awful lot of reading, but it's worth ploughing through the various sites mentioned as the information while unlikely to win prizes for concise writing is right on the nail and very comprehensive
Work down the text and also check out the drawing and you'll find the approach he suggests for scaling the design to suit lower HP fans than the standard 5HP model he suggests for largish ducted systems. He also offered a miniature option to minimise filter blinding on shop vacuums (pictures here: http://www.gallery2.clearvuecyclones.com/v/Mini+CV06/ see notes on this below) - and confirms that it too delivers very high % separation performance on very fine dust.
Here's some info on scaling down to the vacuum size: http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Bullent ... light=cv06 More here: http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclon ... loneSizing
The cyclone is widely reported as performing extremely well (it'd better as I'm mid install on a fullsize system), and has (in a smaller vacuum focused size) been tested for efficiency of dust separation by one of the US universities: http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/index.p ... =page&id=4 (this is the report on the Clear Vue site - they are the company he has approved to offer the design commercially)
Clear Vue were reportedly threatened with legalities if they continued to sell the mini model for vacuum applications, and as a small company they couldn't risk it - so it's DIY only. (the whole thing got pretty controversial, and quite a few in the US were hugely unimpressed since the Pentz design was reportedly around before the other guys)
This is the link to the home page on the Pentz/Clear Vue user's forum http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Bullentin/index.php - lots of photo installs, technical questions answered and more or less universally positive feedback.
There's an awful lot of reading, but it's worth ploughing through the various sites mentioned as the information while unlikely to win prizes for concise writing is right on the nail and very comprehensive
Ondablade
As someone who always champions the Bill Pentz way, how about a WIP on your build. I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to see this as it can seem a bit daunting when you look at his site.
Mark
As someone who always champions the Bill Pentz way, how about a WIP on your build. I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to see this as it can seem a bit daunting when you look at his site.
Mark
Can do on the WIP Mark, but bear in mind that my progress is a bit erratic as it's a part of a full workshop plan and build project that's got mixed up with the recurrence of a health/fatigue issue (seemingly now mostly sorted) and other responsibilities. So it'll be a little while yet before it's up and running.
The stage I'm at is that I've just finished installing the inverter to drive the fan in its enclosure (you don't necessarily need an inverter, but my supply is only 62A and I wanted to keep the start up amps down), and after lots of digging for information finally got it wired and mounted. The fan and cyclone location and layout are sorted, the locally sourced cyclone fabrications and Pentz/Clear Vue fan are in stock and ready for finish assembly, and the space cleared for them. The ducting layout is sorted, and all of the locally sourced ductwork, hose and fittings are also in stock.
Point me towards what interests you and I can post some photos. I'd been intending to do so, but was stalling until it was running in case of unforeseen issues.
On cyclone selection. I guess I'm in the same boat as any of you guys in that I relied on third party information to select the Pentz system - I've no axe to grind, other than perhaps that with a bit of HVAC and lots of design engineering in my background I'm not inclined to attach much weight to the claims of the branded/heavily marketed manufacturers of non-industrial (unregulated) woodworking dust systems. Their stuff tends to be riddled with weasel words. So I try to get the best handle I can on the technicalities/engineering (but in the end while this can get you quite a way, you have to rely to a fair degree on the skills of the original designer and what you read), and the likely trustworthiness of the source.
I guess it's perhaps a result the lack of clarity of his material, but I seem to detect a certain resistance to the Pentz approach and a preference for the branded/marketed kit around here.
The key selling points of the Pentz system for me were (a) Bill is technically competent and clearly not on the make - I've spoken to him several times and it was a labour of love for him (b) it's very widely used, and there's an enormous amount of really positive feedback out there on the Clear Vue and US woodworking forums - including by some testing with dust particle counters and the like; (c) it's been the subject of some (albeit limited) third party university testing to confirm its fine dust separation capability - and anyway seems to have been developed from a well established design model used for fine dusts in regulated environments in industry and (d) the free availability of information made it a DIY/local source option within reach of my budget.
Re. this thread - the cyclone selection decision isn't the complicated part per se. In that all of the majors seem judging by user feedback to work pretty well. (although I think the Pentz may be significantly better on very fine dust - he certainly claims this, and is the only one publishing third party test results) But it's basically a case of do your homework, and take your pick.
Another benefit of the Pentz layout is that it's pretty well proven to be highly scalable. This by Bill from the 'Cyclone Plan' link above: 'Innumerable people have built and purchased little 6” diameter cyclones to use with their 2.5” heavy duty shop vacuums. The medical school testing on these smaller units ends up being just as impressive than the separation on the larger units. These small 6” versions provide 99.9% separation efficiency on particles sized under 5-microns versus the closest competitor providing only 99.9% separation on 25-micron and larger particles. The real proof is in the results that woodworkers get with these in real use. Even shops that make multiple 55-gallon drums of MDF dust daily find they can go six months and still see almost no fine dust in their filters. The same is also true in terms of scaling this design to much larger. I designed one of these for a huge cement processing facility and they went from having to replace filters monthly to every five to six months, plus were able to use a much smaller horsepower motor. The owner of that facility said his cost savings in energy and filters pays him back more than he spent to build this unit every three months. I’ve heard similar reports from a plastics maker, a coffee bean roasting firm, and innumerable woodworkers. Many have even built these units with oversized cyclones to permit them to use smaller motors. Although I don’t particularly like this idea because too much fine dust is not captured if the blower does not move enough air and separation efficiency goes way down, many successfully power my cyclone design with 1.5 hp motors. Instead of building my recommended 18" diameter cyclone, those with 3 hp motors should make 20" diameter cyclones and those with 2 and even 1.5 hp motors should use 22” diameter cyclones. Often these bigger diameters end up requiring mounting the blower to the side as the result would be too tall with a top mounted blower, but regardless they still work very well. If you need a more powerful than 5 hp cyclone, have medical problems, or need to collect from more than one machine at a time, I recommend you seek professional engineering advice.'
The more complex issue and the reason that there is so much info on his pages is that in the end to maximise dust collection and separation performance takes a correctly specified and built total system - starting with the machine hoods, then the duct sizing and layout, the fan and cyclone itself, and the exhaust and filtering arrangements.
The task (once the cyclone and fan are suitable) is broadly to maintain the correct air speed from one end to the other - mostly a matter of duct sizing and layout - but bearing in mind that even a very local restriction like a hood opening with play havoc with the airflow of the total system. No cyclone can work to its full efficiency on a system with other fundamental issues.....
The stage I'm at is that I've just finished installing the inverter to drive the fan in its enclosure (you don't necessarily need an inverter, but my supply is only 62A and I wanted to keep the start up amps down), and after lots of digging for information finally got it wired and mounted. The fan and cyclone location and layout are sorted, the locally sourced cyclone fabrications and Pentz/Clear Vue fan are in stock and ready for finish assembly, and the space cleared for them. The ducting layout is sorted, and all of the locally sourced ductwork, hose and fittings are also in stock.
Point me towards what interests you and I can post some photos. I'd been intending to do so, but was stalling until it was running in case of unforeseen issues.
On cyclone selection. I guess I'm in the same boat as any of you guys in that I relied on third party information to select the Pentz system - I've no axe to grind, other than perhaps that with a bit of HVAC and lots of design engineering in my background I'm not inclined to attach much weight to the claims of the branded/heavily marketed manufacturers of non-industrial (unregulated) woodworking dust systems. Their stuff tends to be riddled with weasel words. So I try to get the best handle I can on the technicalities/engineering (but in the end while this can get you quite a way, you have to rely to a fair degree on the skills of the original designer and what you read), and the likely trustworthiness of the source.
I guess it's perhaps a result the lack of clarity of his material, but I seem to detect a certain resistance to the Pentz approach and a preference for the branded/marketed kit around here.
The key selling points of the Pentz system for me were (a) Bill is technically competent and clearly not on the make - I've spoken to him several times and it was a labour of love for him (b) it's very widely used, and there's an enormous amount of really positive feedback out there on the Clear Vue and US woodworking forums - including by some testing with dust particle counters and the like; (c) it's been the subject of some (albeit limited) third party university testing to confirm its fine dust separation capability - and anyway seems to have been developed from a well established design model used for fine dusts in regulated environments in industry and (d) the free availability of information made it a DIY/local source option within reach of my budget.
Re. this thread - the cyclone selection decision isn't the complicated part per se. In that all of the majors seem judging by user feedback to work pretty well. (although I think the Pentz may be significantly better on very fine dust - he certainly claims this, and is the only one publishing third party test results) But it's basically a case of do your homework, and take your pick.
Another benefit of the Pentz layout is that it's pretty well proven to be highly scalable. This by Bill from the 'Cyclone Plan' link above: 'Innumerable people have built and purchased little 6” diameter cyclones to use with their 2.5” heavy duty shop vacuums. The medical school testing on these smaller units ends up being just as impressive than the separation on the larger units. These small 6” versions provide 99.9% separation efficiency on particles sized under 5-microns versus the closest competitor providing only 99.9% separation on 25-micron and larger particles. The real proof is in the results that woodworkers get with these in real use. Even shops that make multiple 55-gallon drums of MDF dust daily find they can go six months and still see almost no fine dust in their filters. The same is also true in terms of scaling this design to much larger. I designed one of these for a huge cement processing facility and they went from having to replace filters monthly to every five to six months, plus were able to use a much smaller horsepower motor. The owner of that facility said his cost savings in energy and filters pays him back more than he spent to build this unit every three months. I’ve heard similar reports from a plastics maker, a coffee bean roasting firm, and innumerable woodworkers. Many have even built these units with oversized cyclones to permit them to use smaller motors. Although I don’t particularly like this idea because too much fine dust is not captured if the blower does not move enough air and separation efficiency goes way down, many successfully power my cyclone design with 1.5 hp motors. Instead of building my recommended 18" diameter cyclone, those with 3 hp motors should make 20" diameter cyclones and those with 2 and even 1.5 hp motors should use 22” diameter cyclones. Often these bigger diameters end up requiring mounting the blower to the side as the result would be too tall with a top mounted blower, but regardless they still work very well. If you need a more powerful than 5 hp cyclone, have medical problems, or need to collect from more than one machine at a time, I recommend you seek professional engineering advice.'
The more complex issue and the reason that there is so much info on his pages is that in the end to maximise dust collection and separation performance takes a correctly specified and built total system - starting with the machine hoods, then the duct sizing and layout, the fan and cyclone itself, and the exhaust and filtering arrangements.
The task (once the cyclone and fan are suitable) is broadly to maintain the correct air speed from one end to the other - mostly a matter of duct sizing and layout - but bearing in mind that even a very local restriction like a hood opening with play havoc with the airflow of the total system. No cyclone can work to its full efficiency on a system with other fundamental issues.....
Ian
I would be interested in all the aspects of your build, including how you have built stuff, put it together, suppliers, tips and mistakes etc. Pretty much the same as any other detailed project on that forum page. I have nothing specific I want to know at this time, this type of thing is still an idea in my head, but it would be nice to see if I think its do-able. I think others would benefit from the same.
Mark
I would be interested in all the aspects of your build, including how you have built stuff, put it together, suppliers, tips and mistakes etc. Pretty much the same as any other detailed project on that forum page. I have nothing specific I want to know at this time, this type of thing is still an idea in my head, but it would be nice to see if I think its do-able. I think others would benefit from the same.
Mark
OK Mark, but it'll be a done so far/blog like/reporting it more or less as it happens scenario and not a 'how to' since it's not been run yet and as a first time build I can't claim any particular expertise - but I'll start putting up some bits of information relating to aspects of the project. I'll have to fire up the camera and figure if I can put up sketches too, so it'll probably take a few days before anything appears.
Does anybody know how best to do this? Is it OK to run it as a thread, and keep on returning to it?
Does anybody know how best to do this? Is it OK to run it as a thread, and keep on returning to it?
goldeneyedmonkey
Established Member
Incidentially, I was looking over Oneida's store (USA based, not a UK outlet) and you can get the Dust Deputy (just the cyclone and it looks a fair bit smaller and is made from plastic), all shipped over from the states for a bit over £50 at the current exchange rate. The top of the cyclone looks to be only about 4" diameter (see here for an idea of the size of it roughly).
How big's the diameter of the top of yours Si? I wonder what the difference in performance is.
I've asked for prices on the Oneida Dust Deputy Deluxe kit (the same as above + 2 drums and hoses etc.) & the Super Dust Deputy. I'll let you know what the prices are like. But I won't be purchasing anything for a while so won't be able to give any verdicts for a bit.
Cheers _Dan.
How big's the diameter of the top of yours Si? I wonder what the difference in performance is.
I've asked for prices on the Oneida Dust Deputy Deluxe kit (the same as above + 2 drums and hoses etc.) & the Super Dust Deputy. I'll let you know what the prices are like. But I won't be purchasing anything for a while so won't be able to give any verdicts for a bit.
Cheers _Dan.
I keep meaning to measure the sizes of my DD. It's definitely bigger than 4" across - more like 8".
Karl, regarding the problems with the Super DD you bought from ebay.. I just found this thread on another forum :
"Picked up this baby from CT last week (Super DD). Cyclone with 2 convertors and a 2m hose all up for around $650. I can't really say the cyclone is very well made. Parts were welded together poorly and gaps (big gaps) are sealed with silicon."
Si.
Karl, regarding the problems with the Super DD you bought from ebay.. I just found this thread on another forum :
"Picked up this baby from CT last week (Super DD). Cyclone with 2 convertors and a 2m hose all up for around $650. I can't really say the cyclone is very well made. Parts were welded together poorly and gaps (big gaps) are sealed with silicon."
Si.
Ermmm... Just to confirm I will post as promised, but would prefer to wait a couple of weeks until I get started on installing the ductwork - I'm finishing the shop wiring off right now, and have got diverted into preparing a proposal for the local enterprise board.
If anybody wants input about what's done so far (the system is designed, and I have the fan, drive, locally sourced cyclone and ductwork all in stock and waiting for me to get to it, and the ducting layout sorted out) - I'd be happy to share.
But bear in mind it's new ground for me too, and that none of it is yet tested....
If anybody wants input about what's done so far (the system is designed, and I have the fan, drive, locally sourced cyclone and ductwork all in stock and waiting for me to get to it, and the ducting layout sorted out) - I'd be happy to share.
But bear in mind it's new ground for me too, and that none of it is yet tested....
