Router table insert

[Dibs-h]

So folks - would there be any takers for Stainless over Aluminium?

Also 304 (or any of the 300 series) aren't magnetic due to the inclusion of Nickel. The 400 series of Stainless are Magnetic - I can ask what the % cost difference might be, if it is of interest?

I would expect the stainless to be "dip" less and suffer less thermal expansion (if it's an issue) than stainless. Also stainless wouldn't need anodising. Stainless has a harness RC92 versus RC34 for Aluminium. Tensile strength etc - goes without saying steel is noticeably stronger.

The prices were for a set of 20 - which looks a likely number.

Edit: Just enquired - they don't hold stock of 400 series stainless - so it's 304 grade unless someone feels 304 is not adequate.

 

[wizer]

oh that's a shame. Well I still think stainless is the better bet.

 

[wobblycogs]

I'm happy to go with the crowd but would prefer stainless steel. Magnetic stickyness would be nice to have as well if possible.

Out of interest though, how easy is it to machine SS? I have a few HSS bits but no pillar drill (I've a good line in SDS though and this might be an excuse to get a new toy ).

 

[RobertMP]

how easy is it to machine SS? I have a few HSS bits but no pillar drill (I've a good line in SDS though and this might be an excuse to get a new toy ).

You really need cobalt drills as HSS will not do it. Well it will but you may not get more than a couple of holes out of the bit before it blunts. Countersinking holes could be a problem. On the plus side it is seriously tough stuff and you can get away with much thinner material.

 

[Dibs-h]

how easy is it to machine SS? I have a few HSS bits but no pillar drill (I've a good line in SDS though and this might be an excuse to get a new toy ).

You really need cobalt drills as HSS will not do it. Well it will but you may not get more than a couple of holes out of the bit before it blunts. Countersinking holes could be a problem. On the plus side it is seriously tough stuff and you can get away with much thinner material.

I suppose one could drop down to a 4mm plate and 2mm rings - anything else is likely to be a perhaps a bit too thin. Unless folks really fancy a 2mm plate and 1mm rings wink: ). I've just emailed the cutters asking whether 4mm for the plate and 2mm for the rings is possible (i.e. stock material). Not asked for a re-quote, working on the assumption that it should be a little less, but if I keep asking for re-quotes, I'll end up p1ssing them off.

As for the cobalt bit (cheers for the mention Robert)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/5mm-COBALT-DRILL- ... 83fffd6d81

I'm sure for the £1 each the Group Buy could stretch to one of them, per set as well.

 

[wizer]

I'm all for lowering the price as much as we can but I have no way to tell if the plate will dip over time.

 

[Karl]

Dibs - can you take my name off the list please. I've just picked up a new router table, so won't be needing an insert plate.

Cheers

Karl

 

[Dibs-h]

I'm all for lowering the price as much as we can but I have no way to tell if the plate will dip over time.

If we go for stainless - I'd say stick with 6mm for the plate and 3mm for the rings - might be over-engineered, but we are unlikley to get any issues with it going forward.

Can't be bothered to work out the deflection geven the length and assuming a point load - although might do it if I'm bored.

 

[RobertMP]

Support a sheet of 2mm stainless around its edges and you can jump up and down on the middle of the panel without denting it. We never made anything over 1m long in 2mm stainless as our 50 ton press brakes struggled to bend it.

So 4mm will never 'dip over time'

 

[wobblycogs]

I would rather go for an 8mm plate and be completely sure it will remain true even if it means buying more than one drill bit. I'm sure a 4mm plate would probably do it but I would rather go for something that is over engineered. I also doubt the extra thickness greatly affects the price.

A thought just occured to me though. Would it be possible to hold the rings in magnetically? I realize it's not a secure as screws but it's better than no fixing which some people seemed happy with.

 

[RobertMP]

when you go to thicker gauges in stainless sheet they tend to have more of a fabricators steel plate surface finish to them - smooth but not bright. Thinner gauges like 2mm or less are readily available with one side pre finished - semi polished, brushed or mirror polish and come with peel off plastic coating on the good side. The plastic gets cut along with the plate and protects the surface during handling. Stainless is not too hard to polish with a powered mop... just takes some time from a mill finish start.

Oh and if planning the best sheet use... stock sizes were 2000 x 1000mm and 1250 x 2500mm. Stainless and ally are sometimes stocked in old imperial sizes of 6 x 3 and 8 x 4 but not too common now.

 

[Dibs-h]

Support a sheet of 2mm stainless around its edges and you can jump up and down on the middle of the panel without denting it. We never made anything over 1m long in 2mm stainless as our 50 ton press brakes struggled to bend it.

So 4mm will never 'dip over time'

Whilst it may not dent - it will deflect, whether that deflection is of significance to people is another matter. I do believe for a plate of those dimensions the deflection in either case with be negligible - i.e. in normal use you would need to get your feeler gauges out to measure the deflection.

However, if the cost difference is minor - then go with 6mm plate & 3mm rings in Stainless. After all it's not titanium or anything. :wink: Or whatever folks want to go with. Next time I'm visiting my friendly SE, I might get him to do the calcs on his fancy software.

Edit: Robert - we aren't supplying the sheet, so whatever the cutters use is their business. I've just asked for a total cost, i.e. cutting and supply of material. I appreciate what you are saying but for a zero profit group buy - it's easier just to get the cutters to supply the material - the price they would get it at, we'd never come close, and if they put a markup on it - who cares. Saves us the hassle.

 

[RobertMP]

Not trying to rain on peoples ideas here but the more i think about it the worse an idea stainless steel sounds to me.

It really is incredibly tough stuff. yes a cobalt drill will drill it but even that is not easy. Trying to get it from a blank with a few holes in to something with all the fixings in is going to be a nightmare and beyond many people.

How are you going to attach a router to it? what about the screw heads. How will the inserts be held? Sorry if this is explained previously - I've not read the entire thread.

Ordinary mild steel is so much more forgiving to work with - you can tap threaded holes in it with a cheap carbon steel tap for a start.... and countersink a fixing hole for the router. You can thread a hole in stainless - with a HSS tap and a great deal of care and lubricant.

Both materials weld easy enough but not many people have welding facilities plus welding = heat distortion, so it will need to be a mechanical fixings design.

 

[RobertMP]

Edit: Robert - we aren't supplying the sheet, so whatever the cutters use is their business. I've just asked for a total cost, i.e. cutting and supply of material. I appreciate what you are saying but for a zero profit group buy - it's easier just to get the cutters to supply the material - the price they would get it at, we'd never come close, and if they put a markup on it - who cares. Saves us the hassle.

you'll pay for a whole sheet even if you only use 2/3rds of it. just thinking if it worked out to say 24 sets from a sheet the overall cost wouldn't change much if you increased the order from 20 etc.

 

[Dibs-h]

Edit: Robert - we aren't supplying the sheet, so whatever the cutters use is their business. I've just asked for a total cost, i.e. cutting and supply of material. I appreciate what you are saying but for a zero profit group buy - it's easier just to get the cutters to supply the material - the price they would get it at, we'd never come close, and if they put a markup on it - who cares. Saves us the hassle.

you'll pay for a whole sheet even if you only use 2/3rds of it. just thinking if it worked out to say 24 sets from a sheet the overall cost wouldn't change much if you increased the order from 20 etc.

Ah - I see what you mean - I will ask the cutters (on monday) what size sheet they are using and how many sets would result from using the whole sheet.

As for countersinking - after a bit of Googling,

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axmi ... -21819.htm

indicates that it can be used on Stainless.

In terms of a plate - the only holes that would need drilling are those for the router - 4 holes. As well as the 3 matching holes in the rings, using the 3 holes in the plate as a guide.

I appreciate stainless is harder than mild and a lot harder than aluminum, but we aren't dealing with case hardened steel nor boron steel (which is usually end up being 1 cobalt drill bit per hole). I'll get a scrap of stainless and see how it drills (tomorrow or on Monday).

I'll go with the flow - but do like the idea of a stainless plate and rings - it's not something you see often, would rust and a little bit of time with a polishing mop and compound and it would look amazing.

 

[Jake]

Having just been drilling and countersinking 3mm stainless angle for my kitchen, the drilling is not going to be a problem - better with a pillar drill but doable with a cordless with enough pressure. Countersinking much better on a drill press and perfectly feasible. I haven't had to thread it though.

It's easy enough (but time consuming) to go from mill finish to a satin brushed finish with a belt sander.

 

[paininthe]

Cutting / drilling stainless. Stainless work hardens, so when drilling the drill should never be allowed to rub. Once the cut has started carry on till finished. If it is allowed to rub the surface hardens and will be a devil to get started again with normal drills. I've done quite a bit with stainless and that was our only rule.

 

[Mike.C]

I would rather go for an 8mm plate and be completely sure it will remain true even if it means buying more than one drill bit. I'm sure a 4mm plate would probably do it but I would rather go for something that is over engineered. I also doubt the extra thickness greatly affects the price.

A thought just occured to me though. Would it be possible to hold the rings in magnetically? I realize it's not a secure as screws but it's better than no fixing which some people seemed happy with.

Incra's Magnalock system using earth magnets seem to work ok, so I am sure that you could adapt your plate to work with these after you receive it.

http://www.incra.com/product_rta_magnalock.htm

I have the Woodpecker plate http://www.woodpeck.com/aluminsert.html but I think that this system would be harder (and make your inserts more expensive) to make.

Cheers

Mike

 

[crazylilting]

I like the idea of steel as well. Can you tell me what size the plate is? The hole in my table is 12 x 9 so i'm crossing my fingers, but if i need to change the table it isn't that much of a deal.

 

[Aled Dafis]

Guys

I used to design stainless steel bakery equipment for a while, and can categorically state that Stainless is a complete bu**!r to drill, I'd say that Cobalt drills are a must for people that aren't used to drill Stainless, as "Paininthe" mentioned above, it work hardens the moment your drill stops cutting. A pillar drill is also a must if you're talking about drilling 8mm plate. Drilling countersinks will also be a pain.

As regards cutting threads, I'd stay well clear. Stainless steel galls very easily, and tends to friction weld itself to your taps if you don't work VERY CAREFULLY and use loads of lubricant, once the tap has welded itself in your workpiece it's curtains I'm afraid.

If I was making the decision (and I won't as I have a Triton router mounted in the cast iron wing of my jet tablesaw) I'd definately go for the 8mm Mild Steel option for a number of reasons. Firstly it's by far the cheapest option so far, secondly Mild Steel can be easily drilled, tapped, countersunk etc., and 8mm mild steel will be plenty stiff enough for your insert. Corrposion neddn't be an issue if you polish it with some wax every now and again, it's what most of us do to our table saws, planers etc, and it'll kepp the surface nice and slick.

I'd also go for plastic or aluminium inserts, just in case a spinning cutter should come into contact with them, carbide and steel are not the best of friends!

Cheers

Aled

Edit: If you're laser cutting Stainless there's a good chance that the edge of the cut will have been hardened by the localised heat generated by the laser. I once had some gauge plate laser cut, and the hardened edge took off the teeth of a brand new turnip file :shock: :shock: , Stainless shouldn't be so bad, but you have been warned.