Italian bandsaw near Wales, might be worth a punt

[Ttrees]

Might as well post this, as it looks to be the cream of the crop of bandsaws.
I've saved the pics from the bay
200 quids, plus possibly VAT should there be no reserve.
Surely worth a chancers bid

That machine is among the very best designed saws ever made, featuring a foot mounted motor, what they don't make no more on any saw,
plus the adjustable lower wheel as on most you'll see.
Those two features together, isn't so common, and I could name the amount of those on one hand,
i.e the second welded sheet steel Centauro CO, from 80's to 95/96, and the odd Multico,
Not sure apart from these Mmmmmeber's also, that one would see that.

I contest that those machines were too well made, hence the design change.
That seemingly 24" machine has good vulcanized real rubber (not pretend)
tires which would prob last another 30 or 40 years.

Hundred quid VFD and a 3hp/2.2kW, 3 phase motor, probably could be got for half that,
to replace the original, (what could be originally a 2hp/1.5kW motor)
Sell the starter to recoup for it.

Could be set up better than anything new, and have the soft starting to tame it.

The only thing it doesn't have is a mitre slot.

Look at the foot mounted motor mounting plate

Plenty of rubber left to re-crown ala the Centauro profile, apex @ 1mm closer to the front from center.

Good luck to someone should the machine not go much over 200quids.
Understandably a 24" machine might be bit on the lager size,
say, compared to a Far Eastern 20", but there are niceties,
i.e less dusty with larger space around wheels,
and more importantly the table being more spacious, is much much safer than the other option, not to mention comfortable.

All the best
Tom

 

[Jameshow]

Much the same as mine tbh! Good saw!

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Greenfields have been trying to sell that lump of scrap for well over a year now, it requires a foolish person that's willing to put more effort into it than it's worth.

 

[Ttrees]

That machine is good as you can get I contest.
(I haven't been on the bay for some time, computer say no)

Perhaps the lack of a mitre slot might put folks off, as for a one car garage,
another rail for crosscuts would be too space hungry.
It could be the wheel bores are worn I suppose?
That would the the deal breaker.
Suppose the wheels could be out of balance also.

Should those things not be of concern, or present, and all things equal,
it's the only machine, bar the above what I've mentioned what can be aligned,
without faff, that is, or if you like...
from a manufacturers perspective regarding getting every machine out the door.
(running perfectly, that is) delissimo

This thread is kinda in jest though, being a bandsaw troll and all that,
just mentioning a revision is needed on all designs out there,
as there's plenty of folks who reckon they've got better skills setting up a bandsaw,
than the very folks who make'em!

No strange things needed to get that saw to run nice, compared to some other machines out there, featuring oddities that give no other explanation, other than a longer belt didn't get the
machine to run well, so it was the next step.

Did I say a revision on nearly every bandsaw design out there might be the solution.
Then again...who's gonna buy a new machine, if the old one just doesn't give up?

All the best
Tom

 

[Inspector]

She might need some work but in the end if nothing repairable/replaceable is broken it would be a great machine for someone not intimidated by the overhaul. A touch too far away for me though.

Pete

 

[Ttrees]

Aye, I'd imagine the lack of a working motor might be a put off,
seeing as most of the other options in this size might be more ACM like,
featuring 3hp motors, and a mitre slot.
I forgot to mention, not sure what that table tilts to, many of these max out at around 30(ish)
The ACM saws will do 45, though most made with the trunnion back to front, like on the CE models,
and needing lower segment swapping around if wishing to do so.
Could be the same deal here?

And that's for folks who will have the space for such a machine, or willing to trade off the space needed, compared to going for Italian 440,450, or cheapest most compact flavour of 500mm/20" machine one could get, likely from Far Eastern origin, for a bargain.

A good example of a bargain, or the trade off for one, for some who won't require 1" blades.
Just to see what one can get for the money, though worth noting the reserve might not get met,
seems from the sounds of things, it might not be the first time it's been listed.

Be nice to see it running again, though too far for me aswell.
ps @Jameshow when are we going to see some updates on yer saw, or are you still debating to go with a
Mmmeber colour, or possibly the Yankee colour scheme, ala LagunaUSA?
https://forum.canadianwoodworking.c...-laguna-16-inch-bandsaw-made-in-italy-1600-00

All the best
Tom

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Scrap Bandsaw: £200
Transport costs for pallet carrier: £120
Paint to make it look presentable: £150
Stripping old finish and prepping for paint: 8 hours @ £10.42/h (Minimum Wage) = £83.36
New 2.2kw 3-phase motor: £400 for an industrial motor as would be fitted on a new quality machine
New switchgear: £100
New bandwheel bearings: £50
New fence: £100, probably more.
Paying an electrician to install and wire it properly: 3 hours @ £50/h = £150
Disassembly and reassembly time: 8 hours @ 10.42/h = £83.36

Running total: £1436.72

It does still work out cheaper than buying a brand new equivalent, but most likely it would take much longer than what I've specified and if you were to charge a proper rate of what you could earn for those hours of around £30/h it would be completely non-viable. If you did the bare minimum and bought the crappiest parts, it would be cheaper but then it still wouldn't really be worth doing, a far better option would be to buy new or a straight secondhand one and get straight to work.

 

[Inspector]

I suppose your numbers are correct in your circumstance and the way you want it to end up. For me it would be lower here.

Bandsaw. Would offer £150 max and they would take it.
Transport. I would go and get it and put it in the back of my truck or on the trailer. The £120 would get me a butt numbing 1,000km worth of gas.
Paint I could care less about.
Not stripping it and I'm retired so considered not worth anything. Your minimum wage is 20% higher than ours.
I can get a new motor for half to two thirds of what you have to cough up.
Electrics including VFD, cable and plug would be about the same.
Bearings about the same, more if the guides needed new ones.
Fence about right.
I would do the wiring and get the electrician in our woodturning club to check it over if I wasn't sure of it. That would cost a turning blank or a hot/cold beverage depending on his likes.
Disassembly and reassembly still nothing for reason above.

My total £900 max. Still not cheap but for a 24" working bandsaw that ain't bad. If I get a used motor up to £150 less.

A viable option for me but not everyone is in the same boat.

Pete

 

[Ttrees]

That's a much different list than I've got, but the mention of this design being more foolproof
is why one might choose to go for such a machine.

Scrap Bandsaw: £200
Transport costs for pallet carrier: £120
Paint to make it look presentable: £20
Used but modern 2.2kw 3-phase dual voltage motor £50-100
New VFD £100
New bandwheel bearings: might not even need'em, say you do £50
New fence, seems most of it could be there, £40 (for cheap welder)

Could add a 2meter nice spirit level with milled edges 80-90 quid
Large F clamp, (middle isle special), and g clamp £20
Two files for dressing the wheel faces £20
Suitable steel for dressing the crown on the tires, likely most cheaply obtained
from something, again from the middle isle, resembling a TCT circular saw blade £10


Running total: not gonna count it, as there's variables should one wish to get the saw
running to the best of their ability.
i.e likely better than the factories making saws, since those mentioned with foot mounted motors were made.

End result, should the wheels be sound, is a smoother running machine,
what won't need ceramic guides to muddy the waters.

Tom

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Don’t forget to add however many hours you spend cocking about with it to get it “better than factory”, if you were losing money for those hours you’d go broke.

 

[Ttrees]

Though getting a brand new lemon could be just as time consuming, as the time what would be needed to get that Italian saw running...yes still a gamble, regarding wheel bores so your point is very valid indeed.
Still though for the money... by your list, it works out about the same cost for something like the cheapest option 20" saw I bought and returned, now what's seemingly been replaced by the same vendors with a much more questionable design, so one could say either choice being a gamble.

The point being, that Italian saw to some folk, might be a diamond in the rough,
and should wheels be sound and the fence be complete, then preferable to some who don't like metalworking.

Though I'd mention again, the ACM saws do lend themselves to motor adjustability better
than other options with non adjustable face or flange mounted motors, (which all manufacturers have stuck with) should one really want the mitre slot.
All these Italian saws of such an age, are about due some tire dressing now.
well, the ones which still have the original vulcanized rubber tires,
so it's only a matter of time until another 24" machine of Italian origin pops up.
I paid 500 euros for mine, and it took a bit of a wait, needing a fence I might add,
A common theme there, as the fence becomes useless if the condition is such that my machine was in.



Tom

 

[Ttrees]

Might aswell mention, I've mentioned the CO450 (a seemingly rare enough machine)
might not be as adjustable as I thought, still unsure about the adjustability of that shaft in the hub.
though not sure when that machine was made, as seemingly with many Centauro's gotta look around the back to be sure if both features were present.
I'm guessing the CO450 it's from the first ilk of welded sheet steel CO's, so that would mark another machine off the list of fully adjustable machines, making the features what's on that particular Mmmeber saw possibly sought after, well at least for someone who doesn't wish to take chances with an otherwise intentionally negligent design of saw, and instead might seek one of these in particular so they can make their motor suit the upper wheel datum.

So interesting to some folks who might wish to speculate on why the CO changed design from
something without lower wheel adjustment, but instead featuring such regarding the foot mounted motor, not sure exactly the timeline here

Compared to next the CO, featuring the telescopic guidepost cover,
what I'm guessing was built in the same period as the Mmmeber
not got a date on these, but seems it may have been until 1996 when the changed design

Many colours available during this period, no mitre slot on any either.

Then the design of the chassis changed to the non-adjustable motors...like you see today on all,
though must check to see if it's still available on the newer version of this possible 200 odd quid saw.

I can show ye some shots of some questionable practices thereafter,
like some likely longer than spec belts used, but that's it regarding shaming most companies out there, we'll let them away with that little upset to some who use the negative tilt feature.

I won't be showing beyond belt length bodgery, hey ya only need to google image search many
popular machines manufactured from all round the world, the clue is ,you need see both doors
open, and ask yourself, would you be happy to do a romancing the stone jobbie on the heels of the machine...
(should you be picky enough to want the table level, when it's 90 to the blade)

So there goes a fool proof design, designed out...
Jobs for the boys IMO, servicing tires and bearings, guides, or for the folks who don't have time,
another machine, with snap on tires, no need to make adjustments if ya
just keep buying new ones.

I likely won't make any sense but for the folks in two camps here,
those into the whole picture from a manufacturers standpoint, a few notable posts mentioned about shared industry on the Sawmill creek by Mr Van Huskey,
some interesting reading there, gleaning info from the horses mouth.
Perhaps such a person might wish to get this for the whole principal of the design kinda thing.

Whist on the other hand, also for the frugal minded, who might be choosing between something like this Italian "scrap bandsaw" or something terrible with nothing going for it whatsoever
Hopefully I might have sparked an interest in possibly seeing these larger machines as an option,
for those of us not as well heeled as others.

Cheerio
Tom

 

[Ttrees]

Here's what might be suggested for the same money, as something new and cheap.

With some acceptable bodgery from some

Bit like that from day one, seems I can't post a screenshot of them on the truck.
You'll have to see that for yourself @120 into the video on YT.
Did I mention the design needs a revision?...

So there's no getting away from doing a bit'o elbow grease, if yer "unlucky" or just possibly picky.
I looked for the one hour Centauro unicorn,
1, featuring a foot mounted motor,
2 an adjustable lower wheel,
and 3, wheels with an alignment groove what take the tires featuring a tongue.

I didn't find such a machine, though perhaps I haven't looked hard enough.
It might well be a feature still present on the Mmmeber's?
Though not sure if they stuck with vulcanized rubber like what's on the SCM Minimax machines today.

Some might take my posts as knocking certain brands/manufacturers,
but infact it's quite the opposite, as all is fair game, considering no-one makes an
adjustable motor.
I did also mention the other cheap new 20" option what I see a few of on the bay..
wonder why? lol.
The UK rep, nor the shopkeeper could get it to run satisfactory,
and the blade was fluttering more than the thickness of veneer I wanted to cut.

So it's notable testament to the hefty components which feature on the Italian machines,
which have been round far longer than the Far Eastern cheaper copies of them.
And also worth noting, if one was to mod their saw, should it not be running as good as
some others, i.e "bandsaws are like dogs" ...
Then you'd want to be sure it was worth it, nice bits like "Euro guides" and indeed not too complicated,
as what might be the case of a lighter cheaper machine, which might get a bit floppy,
should one cut a big ole in it.

 

[TRITON]

Some machines are just beyond saving.

 

[Ttrees]

Some machines are just beyond saving.

Perhaps for that older "Startrite" Centauro machine, should that lower wheel be without adjustment.
But for everything else mentioned, like the saw without a motor,
or perhaps the last one I pictured, same as the ones on the truck....

Not the end of the world to sort that out.
Hey presto, motor adjustability!

There's a nice little profit margin for someone with the logistics, and perhaps a milling machine,
to do the same thing.

All the best
Tom

 

[John DeLapp]

All of these photos look very familiar. I bought an 18” saw from Laguna tools, back when it was just a single store in Laguna Canyon, in Southern California. This was mid 90s as I remember. They upgraded the guides soon after. Turns out it was made in Italy. When I had to replace a couple of bearings they were made in Russia. I use a 14” Powermatic for day to day work and use the big one for resawing guitar backs and sides. I roll it out and hook up the dust hose and plug it in to the table saw outlet.
The blade is a Lenox Jobmaster 1” , 1 1/3 teeth per inch. The saw is very well thought out, the dust removal is the best I’ve seen. The motor could be larger but if I pay attention to the feed rate it cuts smoothly. Still only a half days work to saw enough for a dozen instruments.

 

[Jameshow]

Aye, I'd imagine the lack of a working motor might be a put off,
seeing as most of the other options in this size might be more ACM like,
featuring 3hp motors, and a mitre slot.
I forgot to mention, not sure what that table tilts to, many of these max out at around 30(ish)
The ACM saws will do 45, though most made with the trunnion back to front, like on the CE models,
and needing lower segment swapping around if wishing to do so.
Could be the same deal here?

And that's for folks who will have the space for such a machine, or willing to trade off the space needed, compared to going for Italian 440,450, or cheapest most compact flavour of 500mm/20" machine one could get, likely from Far Eastern origin, for a bargain.

A good example of a bargain, or the trade off for one, for some who won't require 1" blades.
Just to see what one can get for the money, though worth noting the reserve might not get met,
seems from the sounds of things, it might not be the first time it's been listed.

Be nice to see it running again, though too far for me aswell.
ps @Jameshow when are we going to see some updates on yer saw, or are you still debating to go with a
Mmmeber colour, or possibly the Yankee colour scheme, ala LagunaUSA?
https://forum.canadianwoodworking.c...-laguna-16-inch-bandsaw-made-in-italy-1600-00

All the best
Tom

Hi sorry I been distracted by family matters and had to take time off work to try and get straight.

Will update in the new year.

 

[Ttrees]

All of these photos look very familiar. I bought an 18” saw from Laguna tools, back when it was just a single store in Laguna Canyon, in Southern California. This was mid 90s as I remember. They upgraded the guides soon after. Turns out it was made in Italy.

Looks sorta like one of those CML machines, which I've not seen too many of.
Doesn't appear like any of the others to me, i.e shared components like guidepost for example.
Interesting to see

The saw is very well thought out, the dust removal is the best I’ve seen. The motor could be larger but if I pay attention to the feed rate it cuts smoothly. Still only a half days work to saw enough for a dozen instruments.

Depends on your perspective I suppose, though a very open statement to suggest to a bandsaw troll like myself i.e...
Very well thought out, in a sorta jobs for the boys kinda way, then yes I can agree with this.
Very well thought out components, without a doubt by all accounts.

The only thing missing, regarding the whole picture..
from a users perspective that is, is mentioned above.
and is the same deal with all machines from around the world, what's not the specific era CO machines, a few Mmmebers, and some Multico's.
Perhaps I might be leaving out one or two Italian manufacturers, as there's/their was about 20 of them at one point.

And since the motor hp was mentioned, IMO, no one knows for sure the performance
one should be getting from a given machine, cuz we're not all on the same page.
The best we've got to go on is real good results from some folks who post about it.

Take the machine mentioned for 200 quid for example...
Looks to me, a 1.5kW/2HP motor, running 600mm (If I'm right about that) size wheels....
Though it could be a 700mm wheeled machine, with a 2.2kW/3HP motor.

One could speculate their might be distinct variables regarding the given results
of a larger machine running a motor on the smaller side.
Take the SNAC 540 machines for example, marketed under many differing paint jobs.
These came with 1.5kW motors standard, and I've not came across any what got an upgrade?
(this was when google images actually worked)

I've only got piccies of Griggio's, but you can see the same thing, perhaps a bit newer with round fence rail, and sloped column as in the first pic, on Felder's old FB series, ACM's own branded machines, and one or two others, (this is seemingly before the Laguna USA speced Italian saws)

So it's interesting to note, even the differences of chassis for a given machine,
no upgrades to be seen, for the "might as well get the 3 horsepower option"
which, on the own brand saws, would presumably be a no fuss option,
Might be worth seeing if this could be found.

Sorry, don't seem to have any pics of the name plates any more,
but you might perhaps come across the green Felder FB 540's with such a motor standard....
Before they started to customize things, like speccing huge motors that is.

To me, especially after mythbusting my own thoughts on the matter, that there's actually a camber on the Italian bandsaws...
proved very noticeably to me, indeed how important it is.

So with that in mind, it poses questions in regards to the difference between the blade
dancing on and off the camber apex, on a given machine...
Compared to the same era CO/MMMeber/Multico... all things otherwise being equal,
what's actually set up accurately, and the blade remains on the camber
regarding the entire area of contact, and not just where you can see when tracking.

This is notable when one looks head on at the upper wheel,
like one would with their clock, and keep an eye on 12 o'clock to see the blade walk fore and aft,
whilst hand spinning the wheels, much more informative than looking at the gap between blade
and thrust guide.

Now once you go there, then questions like the "very well thought out" come to mind,
especially if one has read Van's posts concerning his conversations regarding Italian Bandsaws..

"Every time I talk to one of the insiders I get a different story" ...

and the lack of clarity concerning seemingly anything at all,

or how about that old Centauro SP manual.. likely the only Italian manual in existence,
what states there actually is a camber/crown on the tires, and also the importance of this.

...Or how about the old man at Centauro, who was miffed bout something?
I'd love to know if he became disgruntled in 1996.

These answers are likely to be found on the Creek, if it wouldn't cause that much upset.
Perhaps I'm just just trolling ye all though, and alignment in meaningless????

Regards
Tom

(interesting video under 2min)

 

[John DeLapp]

Well, there you go. When I said well thought out I was referring specifically to things like the saws ability to hold a blade without requiring fiddling, consistent tracking, steadiness and efficiency in clearing sawdust. I’m hardly an expert but I’ve followed discussions since before I purchased my first bandsaw, a little Inca eleven inch in 1979.
My old table saw was made in the mid sixties with a horse and a half motor. It was adequate then and adequate now. Rate of feed is as meaningful to me as 0 to 60 mph times on 750 horsepower cars.
When I resaw I’m interested in clean cuts that can be made smooth with the least removal of material.
The timber I buy is selected from stock my local sawyer has air dried for a minimum of three years. I pay him quite a lot for it, forty dollars per board foot last time. If I cut carefully I can get beautiful book matched sets that cost me about forty dollars per set.
The ability to shove wood through a bit faster is immaterial.
Boys work indeed.

 

[Ttrees]

Nice bandsaw and guitar there John.
Seems yourself and many others have missed my point about anything lesser than the designs mentioned being a lottery.
If you think I want to brag about results or whatever, then you've missed all the misery
what's the result of misalignment.
Plus all the rest what you might have picked up on, that's not really important to me by comparison either,
and also worth mentioning the speedier CT blades (what's often the weapon of choice with this kinda saw) just muddies the waters aswell,
as when alignment is off, and tires have the crown worn off them, then blade set becomes a factor.

Just mentioning that, as I could guess you might still be under the illusion that Italian tires have a totally flat profile,
and if you've not got that opinion, then I sure could'a used your help some time ago. lol!


I can't show you Saggatario's fresh from the factory, but can likely pick out some new options of lemons, from any manufacturer.

So for anyone who wishes to pretend that the Mmmeber's chassis, or the fully adjustable CO mentioned, or some Multico's weren't a superior design in regards to many things,
then how about mentioning what machines would be an option today?

The fact most folks haven't caught on to why things are as they are, is a joke.
i.e Jobs for the boys.
Fair enough (not really) if you've got an Italian machine off the bay, what's not adjustable
for a bargain...
(that's not got 7 bells knocked out of it, badly mistreated, and only good for cutting pallets)

Then that's just a matter of replacing the "consumables" on the Italian machine...
but when you look at the other cheaper options of saws out there,
which are basically lesser copies of those, in some way or another,
some like my old new saw being the low fat flavour...

This same rhetoric might not apply with those lesser parts.
what indeed seems a game of re-branding from these even more unscrupulous companies,
or for the ones who've stuck around, perhaps making something more sound,
don't seem to have kept with the same machine for very long,
and instead using bells and whistles to distract the buyer into forgetting why they might be getting a new saw in the first place.

Once again, more Jobs for the boys!

All the best
Tom