carving tools what you think?

[Jacob]

...... a brand new Stanley No 4 which despite my best efforts I could not persuade to works. I, quite naturally in my view, thought the fault was with me.

But you can't be protected from these risks. The only way forwards is to have a go with whatever you have to hand.

.........I don't buy the argument that really good tools can put people off. .....

Can be a disappointment to a beginner in that they don't quite do what is expected. But that's OK as long as they keep at it.
Most people who have learned anything, even to a high level, began with duff kit. First bike, guitar, cricket bat, woodwork tools and so on. It's normal.
Buy Lidl chisels - have a bash with them - just get stuck in! If you think you might like it then think of getting some better ones.

 

[bugbear]

Buy Lidl chisels - have a bash with them - just get stuck in! If you think you might like it then think of getting some better ones.

With a set of (say) Ashley Iles carving chisels, supplied sharp and ready to use, cutting sweetly and leaving a good surface, yeah, a beginner might plausibly "like it".

If the tools perform poorly, or require tuning that a beginner either cannot do, or doesn't even know needs to be done, the results will be poor, and the beginner most unlikely to persist.

BugBear

 

[LuptonM]

I think you should just buy the best for the money your willing to spend i.e try and get the best deal as possible. Vintage chisels in good condition represent good value so I'd go with them. Also they will retain alot if value if trying to sell in the future whereas wih the lidl chisels you'd probably have to give them away

Sharpening carving chisels (which I have no idea about) is probably more important than the quality of steel for beginners. A beginner will have to sharpen the chisels eventually so it doesn't matter if they come sharp or not. Though I expect carving chisels to be tricky to regrind (is this done free hand?)

TBH the LIDL chisels don't look too bad. My dad bought some cheap ones some time ago and they look much worse (though he would never pay £20!)

 

[yetloh]

Buy Lidl chisels - have a bash with them - just get stuck in! If you think you might like it then think of getting some better ones.

With a set of (say) Ashley Iles carving chisels, supplied sharp and ready to use, cutting sweetly and leaving a good surface, yeah, a beginner might plausibly "like it".

If the tools perform poorly, or require tuning that a beginner either cannot do, or doesn't even know needs to be done, the results will be poor, and the beginner most unlikely to persist.

BugBear

Exactly.

Jim

 

[powertools]

...... a brand new Stanley No 4 which despite my best efforts I could not persuade to works. I, quite naturally in my view, thought the fault was with me.

But you can't be protected from these risks. The only way forwards is to have a go with whatever you have to hand.

.........I don't buy the argument that really good tools can put people off. .....

Can be a disappointment to a beginner in that they don't quite do what is expected. But that's OK as long as they keep at it.
Most people who have learned anything, even to a high level, began with duff kit. First bike, guitar, cricket bat, woodwork tools and so on. It's normal.
Buy Lidl chisels - have a bash with them - just get stuck in! If you think you might like it then think of getting some better ones.

Iv'e got to say that I agree with Jacob.
I almost anything any of us have ever done we have started with the basics and if we have enjoyed it we progress.
I started my woodworking with a Stanley Bridges drill and all the kit that went with it far from put me off it sparked my interest.
If I had felt that to be able to have good results from the start I would need to spend a fortune on tools I may well not have started.
There is a thread running at the moment were a member needs a pyrography tool to write their name on 2 items and the best advice is to spend around £150 that is madness they could do it for less than a tenner but if they think having done it that they like to do far more then that is the time to spend out on better kit.
As for the Faithfull tools comment being of poor quality as posted above is beyond belief

 

[bugbear]

.
There is a thread running at the moment were a member needs a pyrography tool to write their name on 2 items and the best advice is to spend around £150

If you check the thread, I recommended a marker pen.

BugBear

 

[powertools]

.
There is a thread running at the moment were a member needs a pyrography tool to write their name on 2 items and the best advice is to spend around £150

If you check the thread, I recommended a marker pen.

BugBear

Maybe you did and as you did you will see my point

 

[Jacob]

......
I have yet to meet someone new to woodworking (and I have met many) who thought that expensive tools would magically turn them into skilled crafts people.

I've met several. One persistent notion is that a router (electric) is the first and most essential purchase. Or they have been drawn towards brass knobbery and spent a lot of dosh on LV, LN etc only to find that they still can't do woodwork. :roll:

I have seen people put off by rubbish tools - not least myself in my younger years when presented with a brand new Stanley No 4 which despite my best efforts I could not persuade to works. I, quite naturally in my view, thought the fault was with me.

So you didn't do any woodwork after that?

...... I remain convinced that the best advice to those on a restricted budget is to buy few tools but buy high quality. .....

I think the most important purchase is wood. It tends to get overlooked. I think a lot of people spend more on tools than wood. Speaks for itself.

 

[Lons]

Just to put in my twopennerth.

A beginner to carving (the assumption being shaping a reasonably sized piece of wood - not a tree trunk with a chainsaw or a tiny netsuke), is easily tempted by the tool kits of 6, 12 or 18 different profile chisels. After all, most of us are easily seduced by nice shiny tools.

However, it is an absolute certainty that the vast majority of those tools will rarely if ever be used and someone starting out needs only 2 or 3 decent quality chisels to produce acceptable first results and thereby learn whether carving is something to be further pursued or not.
(My golfer first attempt, inspired by a Peter Berry article was with a 1/2" bevel edge chisel and an old 3/4" std gouge plus a scapel and penknife for the fine detail. Not easy with rubbish stringy mahogany but enough to know I had an interest.)

If carving is not for you, then those tools are not wasted as they can still be usefull in general woodworking occasionally. If the craft becomes a passion then you buy tools individually to suit your perceived needs.

It is definately possible to carve with cheap (and homemade) chisels, you just need to spend more of your time sharpening and even more touching up the edge whilst working (that's the secret whatever you use anyway), but surely the reason to carve should be enjoyment and with good steel it is a much more pleasant experience.

I have a sizeable range including Addis, Pfeil, Henry Taylor, Ashley Isles and several others and in common with the other carvers I know, the majority of the work is done with no more than half a dozen chisels.

More important is sharpening equipment and the skill to use it as well as a reliable method of workholding.

The only othe thing I would add is that despit me saying try any piece of wood which looks promising, it is better for a beghinner to start with lime, basswood, fruitwood or even a decent bit of pine as very difficult wood can give a wrong impression. The mahogany I used could easily have put me off and my next attempt with lime was a revelation.

Bob

 

[jimi43]

All my carving chisels have been bought from bootfairs at no more than 50p a go.

They all needed sharpening and shaping which had the additional benefit of my having to learn how to do this on tiny gouges etc....something which I am glad that I had to learn and benefit from the experience.

So quality tools do not have to have prohibitive prices.

It is my opinion that "Faithful" tools are not of a quality that I would give house room...others may have a different view...fine...

I don't happen to like A2 steel either but that is a personal choice having tried the stuff and including the maintenance of the steel. I was impressed by T10 which seems to have the quality and hardness of A2 but with the pleasure of sharpening of 01.

In any field I find that the enjoyment of the subject is the ease at which the tool used performs and the pleasure of the finish....of course you can hack away at wood with a tent peg...I would just rather not!

I'm sure the original poster has now enough data to make an informed choice....which is the idea of the thread in the first place...

But one clear point that must be made...quality tools do not have to cost huge prices...a common mistake.....secondhand is a great way to go for beginners....always will be. 8)

Jim

 

[Jacob]

Yes 2nd hand is good and cheap. I like Bobs 2 chisels and a penknife idea. Yes a good set of top class Ashley Iles would be good. By all means have a go with Lidl cheapies. Main thing is to get stuck in even if it's with a sharpened up old file and a lump hammer. Holding device important, bench plus vice a good start.
It's also OK to accumulate a collection of lovely tools in a leather roll, all anointed with camellia oil - and never use them, if that's what turns you on!

 

[bugbear]

However, it is an absolute certainty that the vast majority of those tools will rarely if ever be used and someone starting out needs only 2 or 3 decent quality chisels to produce acceptable first results and thereby learn whether carving is something to be further pursued or not.

In the 80's Woodworker ran a series on carving, and they sold the chisels the author was demonstrating. It was a very small number of chisels, with coded handles for ease of selection.

I forget (it's in my filing system somwhere) how many chisels were in it, either 4 or 6. The course covered gothic, bas relief, linen fold, and figurative.

All with 4 (or 6!) chisels.

About the only thing carving forums seem to agree on is - don't buy a set! Choose your style of carving, and buy (decent) induividual chisels as needed.

BugBear

 

[condeesteso]

I haven't seen a decent argument here against buying second-hand. There are plenty of Isles, Sorby, H Taylor etc available and many bargains to be had. I know they will probably need sharpening / tuning, but the cheap new ones will too and at least the steel of the good old ones will beat the cheap new, hands down.
I accept the argument against sets if buying new, but if I can get say 10 older carving chisels for say £20 (it has been done) I'll find out which I use a lot by having the choice... otherwise how will I ever discover the ones I use the most?
And on sharpening, we all need to learn to do it anyway (whether a plane, a chisel, whatever... we cut wood) so there's no real escape from that. And I admit I find sharpening carvers well to be quite difficult... but that is the nature of the tool.

 

[GazPal]

I agree with Jacob and think the set being sold by Lidl doesn't look too bad and - even if in need of re-grinding - should serve well for anyone interested in learning to carve on an amateur basis. The degree of work necessary to make them serviceable isn't that great (A basic touch-up grind and whetting) and the steel holds a reasonable enough edge. For less than £20 a beginner will find him/herself with a basic set of carving chisels, without needing to invest too heavily or needing to trawl car boot sales/ebay for "better" chisels - that he may not even recognise - are very probably in need of just as much fettling. Searching for bargains tends to accompany an element of knowledge concerning the pieces you're searching for.

Another aspect to consider is whether or not a novice is capable of recognising the chisel for the job. At least buying a set of this nature amounts to having a reasonable selection from which to chose and a particular chisel can easily be replaced if it isn't up to scratch. The original chisel only cost £1.66 and may have failed, but at least the learner has been able to test drive his interest in carving and tool preparation, as well as come to know which chisel/chisels he may need when/if he chooses to invest in higher end tools or specialise in a particular area of carving.

A set may prove unnecessary, but learning from a basic selection does pay dividends when tutoring yourself around basic and more complex carving exercises. The point is learning which chisel is capable of doing the work, as well as the manipulation of tools and materials.

The surest means of quenching a beginner's interest is to tell him he needs to sell off major bodily organs in order to raise funds to invest in the best tools or trawl car boot sales when his interest isn't all that great. Especially when there's a high likelihood of his interest faltering early, without him advancing to a stage anywhere near carving a statue of "David" or "Venus" from exotic woods. The same stands for the approach to hand planes (There's nothing wrong with new Stanley/Record planes) where you don't need a selection from LN/Veritas, as well as the topic of pyrography which is essentially based around the use of a heated iron/basic soldering iron to burn patterns into wood/leather.

 

[Jacob]

I haven't seen a decent argument here against buying second-hand. ,,,,,.

Only that they aren't always there just when you want them. And it's a bit of a gamble especially if you aren't sure of what you want/need

 

[Melinda_dd]

ok, so after watching this thread with interest I have been watching the ones on fleabay. They have already got up to 51 pound, and they still have 5 days to go. Unfortunately however good they maybe which is probably very good, I don't want to spend loads on my first chisels not knowing if i'm gonna get on with it.

The lidls set has been purchased! They look ok... Needs sharpening but expected that. ..... We'll see!

 

[Jacob]

Good luck!
I had a look on ebay but it looks like a minefield. Many of the groups are not "sets" but are just a random selection of odds and ends. Lot of stuff overpriced too.

 

[bugbear]

Here's a slightly better eBay search

Tricky area if you don't know your stuff, and they're not always cheap.

Tit-bit of information; In the era when there were lots of carvers (East end of London was a centre) a retiring or deceased carvers tools would sell at a premium over new ones, since he would have already done the work of fettling them.

BugBear

 

[powertools]

I'm sure that these tools won't be of the highest quality but I along with many others would be interested to know if they have kept your interest in woodwork or have put you off for life.

 

[LuptonM]

I found my dad's carving tools (at least they look identical) http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-2502 ... B001C7NE7Q . These ones are definitely a waste of time since I've handled them in person.The lidl ones have to be better!