Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
Anybody had any experience of Nextgen, or anything similar? https://nexgenheating.com/about-us
Looks like a really good idea
Looks like a really good idea
a new era of low cost, accessible and efficient heating?
- Thread starter Jacob
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While we are prioritising retrofit in social and public sector housing ...
It'll be subsidised heavily and endlessly.
It'll be subsidised heavily and endlessly.
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
I'm sceptical. Firstly, electricity is around 3 to 4 times the price of gas per kWH, so with no "gain", such as is claimed for heat pumps, it'll be dear. Secondly, my personal experience of not heating unused spaces is not good. Mould can be a problem.
Tris
What am I doing here?
Something about that website smacks of snake oil
Jamesc
Established Member
As a heating designer for the last 40 years, I too am sceptical. The website is heavy on promise but gives absolutely no actual information on the system.
It states it is safe as it runs at 24V, however my simple off the cuff calculations show that this would require quite alarming Current.
Offgen state that a typical 2-bed terrace requires just over 11kW to heat it. This equates to over 400 Amps of current, not something I would call safe.
I have been working with Infra-Red heating systems for all my carreer and they do have their advantages and uses. Most will have seen those long black tubes in places like garden centres and fet the warmth on their heads. They are great for places like this as they warm up people and not the air in between. This system claims a 50/50 split so will also heat up the air which means they are going to have to deliver the full heat loss.
It is going to take some pretty impressive solar cells and batteries to run this as they suggest on their site.
What is really needed is to remove the heat loss in the first place by insulating and draught proofing. Even the highest standards we use today fall short in my opinion of making this system viable for most.
It states it is safe as it runs at 24V, however my simple off the cuff calculations show that this would require quite alarming Current.
Offgen state that a typical 2-bed terrace requires just over 11kW to heat it. This equates to over 400 Amps of current, not something I would call safe.
I have been working with Infra-Red heating systems for all my carreer and they do have their advantages and uses. Most will have seen those long black tubes in places like garden centres and fet the warmth on their heads. They are great for places like this as they warm up people and not the air in between. This system claims a 50/50 split so will also heat up the air which means they are going to have to deliver the full heat loss.
It is going to take some pretty impressive solar cells and batteries to run this as they suggest on their site.
What is really needed is to remove the heat loss in the first place by insulating and draught proofing. Even the highest standards we use today fall short in my opinion of making this system viable for most.
It's all there in the technology tab.
It is a far infrared tech, just like the black tubes used for infrared heat in factories, etc.
Far infrared as opposed to near infrared you get from the red quartz lamps on food counters and bathroom heaters.
Heat the person not the air.
BUT
It's implemented as a fancy wallpaper that you put on your ceiling.
It says it incorporates insulation - it'll need to as 50% of the energy is "lost" as conduction into the ceiling even with whatever insulation it incorporates.
Only half of the energy consumed is turned into infra red.
Infra red energy passes through the air and is absorbed by most surfaces it hits, so it will feed heat into the walls, floor and objects in the room, not just the occupants. I'd say this is all good. Heating the fabric not the air of a building means you aren't wasting so much via warm air leaking out as draughts, but electricity is 3x the cost of gas and there is no heat pump style efficiency gain.
Electric panel radiators working on this same principle are widely available, they are super simple and last a long time with zero maintenance. This is an advantage over boilers and heat pumps, especially in the social housing sector. They are hellishly expensive for something so simple - I enquired about prices once and it's a real snake oil segment. Such high pricing for something so basic. Marketing trying to pretend they are something they aren't.
They seem to be popular in Germany for some reason. I can see them suiting small city apartments used by people who aren't home much. I really don't think they'll be a good choice for a larger family home, especially an older inefficient one.
Smart controls are vital. With such high running costs but very quck heat up, heating the space only when it's occupied is a logical thing to do. I agree though that it probably isn't too healthy for the building to heat only part of it and only part of the time.
Several months ago I was reading a lot about thermal storage, sand batteries and the like wondering if they would pair with my solar PV. I came across what was probably the origin of this company back then. I forget where but it had just created this IR emissive wallpaper and were doing tests on it. It had the vibe of a couple of inventors doing really early stage research, I have a half recollection they were in Widnes, Cheshire, but their website even then mentioned the social housing segment.
I think they must have found backers and had a fancy website rustled up for them. I'd be interested to know if you can actually buy a commercial product. You couldn't not so long ago.
The use of electric heating is maybe more widespread than we realise. If you google "kotatsu" and read about the culture around it, you discover that many apartments in Japan are heated only by electricity, often with air conditioners that do both heating and cooling. They have hard enough winters and it is expensive, so it is common for the living room to be arranged around a low table with a quartz IR heating lamp fitted to the underneath. About 600 watts.
A special quilt is draped over the table reaching to the floor to keep in the heat and a second table top then holds everything in place and provides a work surface for daily life. People (and pets) sit, lie, even sleep around the table, tucked under the quilt to keep warm while no doubt the apartment is left quite cool.
It is a far infrared tech, just like the black tubes used for infrared heat in factories, etc.
Far infrared as opposed to near infrared you get from the red quartz lamps on food counters and bathroom heaters.
Heat the person not the air.
BUT
It's implemented as a fancy wallpaper that you put on your ceiling.
It says it incorporates insulation - it'll need to as 50% of the energy is "lost" as conduction into the ceiling even with whatever insulation it incorporates.
Only half of the energy consumed is turned into infra red.
Infra red energy passes through the air and is absorbed by most surfaces it hits, so it will feed heat into the walls, floor and objects in the room, not just the occupants. I'd say this is all good. Heating the fabric not the air of a building means you aren't wasting so much via warm air leaking out as draughts, but electricity is 3x the cost of gas and there is no heat pump style efficiency gain.
Electric panel radiators working on this same principle are widely available, they are super simple and last a long time with zero maintenance. This is an advantage over boilers and heat pumps, especially in the social housing sector. They are hellishly expensive for something so simple - I enquired about prices once and it's a real snake oil segment. Such high pricing for something so basic. Marketing trying to pretend they are something they aren't.
They seem to be popular in Germany for some reason. I can see them suiting small city apartments used by people who aren't home much. I really don't think they'll be a good choice for a larger family home, especially an older inefficient one.
Smart controls are vital. With such high running costs but very quck heat up, heating the space only when it's occupied is a logical thing to do. I agree though that it probably isn't too healthy for the building to heat only part of it and only part of the time.
Several months ago I was reading a lot about thermal storage, sand batteries and the like wondering if they would pair with my solar PV. I came across what was probably the origin of this company back then. I forget where but it had just created this IR emissive wallpaper and were doing tests on it. It had the vibe of a couple of inventors doing really early stage research, I have a half recollection they were in Widnes, Cheshire, but their website even then mentioned the social housing segment.
I think they must have found backers and had a fancy website rustled up for them. I'd be interested to know if you can actually buy a commercial product. You couldn't not so long ago.
The use of electric heating is maybe more widespread than we realise. If you google "kotatsu" and read about the culture around it, you discover that many apartments in Japan are heated only by electricity, often with air conditioners that do both heating and cooling. They have hard enough winters and it is expensive, so it is common for the living room to be arranged around a low table with a quartz IR heating lamp fitted to the underneath. About 600 watts.
A special quilt is draped over the table reaching to the floor to keep in the heat and a second table top then holds everything in place and provides a work surface for daily life. People (and pets) sit, lie, even sleep around the table, tucked under the quilt to keep warm while no doubt the apartment is left quite cool.
Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
1/10th the output over 50 times the area of a normal radiant heater. Not unlike under floor low temp heating as required by heat pumps.
That's exactly the same idea as Nextgen. It's not only about the amount of heat but also about how and where it's delivered. A radiant source can warm the person without having to warm the whole room and everything in it.
Same with a fan heater - can warm me in my small kitchen almost immediately, but turning on the CH radiator would take half an hour before you'd even notice.
I agree that's priority
Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
Bin there dunnit! Had a wintery week in Tokyo with some resident friends.
Traditionally you'd sit around a charcoal brazier under the table with a blanket over everybody playing footsy.
https://www.kyoto-ryokan-sakura.com/archives/372
Similar goings on in Mongolian yurts and Inuit igloos.
Very cosy: https://www.google.com/search?sca_e...WdpCwQQ0pQJegQIDRAB&biw=1136&bih=562&dpr=1.25
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Jamesc
Established Member
Hi Jacob, I agree with where you are coming from if the system is entirely radiant. However thay state that it is 50/50 radiant and thermal, and that the surface temperature will not exceed 45ºC. This means it is producing a significan amount of thermal energy which is going to try and heat the air and objects in the room. As it is on the ceiling there will be minimum convection (hot air rises after all) so you are likely to have a hot zone up by the ceiling exactly where it will be of least benifit.
Think about those old glowing radiant heaters we all used to have in our bathrooms, you felt the warmth from them when in line but your bath sill got cold quickly, and you didn't hang about getting out and dressed!
Think about those old glowing radiant heaters we all used to have in our bathrooms, you felt the warmth from them when in line but your bath sill got cold quickly, and you didn't hang about getting out and dressed!
Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
No doubt it isn't perfect but it's an interesting idea nevertheless.
The hot air high up is a prob with all heating systems but can be brought down with a ducted fan, or by generating circulation with a convection heater of one sort or another. This is often done.
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Jamesc
Established Member
I agree, it is interesting. I sincerly hope it is as good as it claims. Unfortunately as others have stated the website comes accross as snake oil and for me as a designer I want to see hard figures that I can plug into my calclulations.
Until I see these I for one cannot in all concience recomend them to my clients.
Until I see these I for one cannot in all concience recomend them to my clients.
Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
I wouldn't suggest you do either, until you've looked into it!
I've dropped them a line myself.
selectortone
Still waking up not dead in the morning
That's my daughter's situation. She has far-IR heaters fitted in her ceilings and thinks they are excellent, both in terms of heat (quickly, on demand) and economy. She switches them on with her phone 15 minutes before she gets home.
I’m sceptical as well when it comes to heating, at least for the UK. I know Scandinavian houses have better insulation and maybe electricity is cheaper but air source heating seems to be working for them.
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...limates, a,benefit from well-insulated houses.
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...limates, a,benefit from well-insulated houses.
Terry - Somerset
Established Member
My initial reaction is snake oil.
I accept the principal that heating the person not the space may create a similar level of comfort for less energy use. although a comparison may better be made with heated clothing.
However there seems to be no efficiency gain (300%+ for heat pump technology) and I assume the basic laws of physics continue to apply. I see application for bathrooms etc where heat is needed for swift effect and limited duration.
I accept the principal that heating the person not the space may create a similar level of comfort for less energy use. although a comparison may better be made with heated clothing.
However there seems to be no efficiency gain (300%+ for heat pump technology) and I assume the basic laws of physics continue to apply. I see application for bathrooms etc where heat is needed for swift effect and limited duration.
Tris
What am I doing here?
These are available and sound like similar technology, reviewed very favourably on Robert Llewellyn's Fully Charged channel a while back. Look like they'd work well in the right situation
https://www.herschel-infrared.co.uk/
https://www.herschel-infrared.co.uk/
Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
There is no efficiency gain but there is less energy wasted with the "right" radiant heat - well known simple fact.
Nextgen is an interesting variation on old technology. See @Tris 's link above for more variations.
It was on the telly last night I'd never heard of it before, that's why I raised the topic.
Years ago I had a choice of paraffin heaters - one the old fashioned wick variety, the other the slightly more modern Tilley radiant, which was utterly superior in use. Though I never compared running cost I would be surprised if there was much in it.
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By utilising the large surface area available on the ceiling, it means there is no temperature gradient throughout the room so the users feel a uniformed comfortable ‘sunlight’ warmth.
Heat rises and is why underfloor heating is a good system, it warms you feet upwards which is how your body likes it rather than being heated from above.
Most of those I have seen have been gas and not electric.
I agree with the term snake oil and that
What so many overlook is that you cannot get out more energy than you put in, so rather than addressing the heating aspect you are far better of looking at retaining the heat through insulation because as that gets better you need less energy to achieve the same results but often not easy as a retrofit and should start of at the design stage and be part of a build from day one but what developer is going to accept 2ft plus thick walls .
Heat rises and is why underfloor heating is a good system, it warms you feet upwards which is how your body likes it rather than being heated from above.
Most of those I have seen have been gas and not electric.
I agree with the term snake oil and that
so just a money making scheme until the truth comes out.
What so many overlook is that you cannot get out more energy than you put in, so rather than addressing the heating aspect you are far better of looking at retaining the heat through insulation because as that gets better you need less energy to achieve the same results but often not easy as a retrofit and should start of at the design stage and be part of a build from day one but what developer is going to accept 2ft plus thick walls .
