ScottGoddard
Established Member
As I spend more and more time woodworking then I have come to realise that I need more accurate tools...Therefore what are the most recommend squares that people recommend/use. I am a hobbyist, not a pro,
New square required!
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MattRoberts
Established Member
+1 for a starrett - it's lovely to work with a combination square that you can feel confident is bang on every time
Whether you're hobbyist or pro it doesn't matter, if you're going to have a square it has to exactly that . . . .square.ScottGoddard":2mapwse3 said:
If it's not square then it's not worth having. The more you do the more realise that things have to be straight, flat and square to have a chance of a project turning out half decent.
Squares can be "in" or "out" of square regardless of price.
I tried to buy a "certified" square a while back. The company advertised their stuff to whatever the BS or En number is (I cant remember it off hand). When I asked for a certificate with it the price doubled.
I bought a standard square and easily tested it by drawing a line and flipping the square to check it from the other way, and this bog standard square was more accurate than my eye could tell.
I would just say stay away from REALLY cheap, like silverline and rolson. I bought a rolson square and found the bar to be bent in both planes.
I tried to buy a "certified" square a while back. The company advertised their stuff to whatever the BS or En number is (I cant remember it off hand). When I asked for a certificate with it the price doubled.
I bought a standard square and easily tested it by drawing a line and flipping the square to check it from the other way, and this bog standard square was more accurate than my eye could tell.
I would just say stay away from REALLY cheap, like silverline and rolson. I bought a rolson square and found the bar to be bent in both planes.
Eric The Viking
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The British Standard for a machinist's square is BS 939 (German/European is DIN 875-1).
Some cheeky manufacturers do have the nerve, etc., to put the mark on rubbish, in the confidence that the wholesale price is unbeatable and user feedback will never get back to them ("Oh, well it's either been damaged in transit... or possibly dropped sir?"), but generally speaking I think it's worth a punt if it actually has the standard marked on the tool.
The Fischer one (German made) I have is marked with both BS and DIN references, and it's bang on, but I have a set of "Soba" (actually Shoba Industries, of India) squares, which look pretty, and aren't actually very square. To be fair, these are not BS 939 marked, but frustratingly they are well finished, were bought from a reputable dealer, and look like they ought to be good!
OK, we are talking about "good enough" or not, but the thing about small squares is they get a lot of use standing up on machine tables, etc., and small errors in setup can be exaggerated, depending on the machining operation being done. Drilling square is but one good example - I have to check the table on my drill press often, as it can twist (when I need it to stay square!). Then of course there's setting the table saw and bandsaw, and router table, and so on.
The traditional test for squareness* is very fast and easy. The difficulty with small squares though is extending the test line far enough to show up any error clearly: you need a steel rule, and to be sure that nothing slips out of place whilst you use it... which in turn means your ruler ought to have both sides parallel (not essential, but jolly helpful), and so on.
It's cold and wet, and I don't really want to be in the workshop at the moment! So I was watching Matt Estlea on YouTube yesterday, making a four-joint practice piece. He reminded me about the importance of two true stock faces and a square edge, being marked and always referred to when setting out. To check you have made that, you only need a straightedge and the inside surfaces of a try square, so the outside of it isn't important. But I don't want a collection of squares I can only use one way!
If we all made enough of a fuss, retailers might have an old bit of MFC or something in the shop so we can check what we are buying. Next time, I think I'll take one with me!
E.
*Take a flat piece of something with a staight edge on it. Put the square on the edge, mark a line nominally perpendicular to that edge with a fine pencil or knife. Flip the square so it's facing the other way and make a second mark next to the first. If they're not parallel the square is off (as long as the edge it's against really IS straight). And check both the inside and outside edges of the blade, too. Note that this won't pick up issues with tapers on the "stock" part of the square, so it could still be off when used standing upright. To check that, you really need a jig... <sigh>.
Some cheeky manufacturers do have the nerve, etc., to put the mark on rubbish, in the confidence that the wholesale price is unbeatable and user feedback will never get back to them ("Oh, well it's either been damaged in transit... or possibly dropped sir?"), but generally speaking I think it's worth a punt if it actually has the standard marked on the tool.
The Fischer one (German made) I have is marked with both BS and DIN references, and it's bang on, but I have a set of "Soba" (actually Shoba Industries, of India) squares, which look pretty, and aren't actually very square. To be fair, these are not BS 939 marked, but frustratingly they are well finished, were bought from a reputable dealer, and look like they ought to be good!
OK, we are talking about "good enough" or not, but the thing about small squares is they get a lot of use standing up on machine tables, etc., and small errors in setup can be exaggerated, depending on the machining operation being done. Drilling square is but one good example - I have to check the table on my drill press often, as it can twist (when I need it to stay square!). Then of course there's setting the table saw and bandsaw, and router table, and so on.
The traditional test for squareness* is very fast and easy. The difficulty with small squares though is extending the test line far enough to show up any error clearly: you need a steel rule, and to be sure that nothing slips out of place whilst you use it... which in turn means your ruler ought to have both sides parallel (not essential, but jolly helpful), and so on.
It's cold and wet, and I don't really want to be in the workshop at the moment! So I was watching Matt Estlea on YouTube yesterday, making a four-joint practice piece. He reminded me about the importance of two true stock faces and a square edge, being marked and always referred to when setting out. To check you have made that, you only need a straightedge and the inside surfaces of a try square, so the outside of it isn't important. But I don't want a collection of squares I can only use one way!
If we all made enough of a fuss, retailers might have an old bit of MFC or something in the shop so we can check what we are buying. Next time, I think I'll take one with me!
E.
*Take a flat piece of something with a staight edge on it. Put the square on the edge, mark a line nominally perpendicular to that edge with a fine pencil or knife. Flip the square so it's facing the other way and make a second mark next to the first. If they're not parallel the square is off (as long as the edge it's against really IS straight). And check both the inside and outside edges of the blade, too. Note that this won't pick up issues with tapers on the "stock" part of the square, so it could still be off when used standing upright. To check that, you really need a jig... <sigh>.
Eric The Viking
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I get that, but you need two squares, and you still need a way of checking your "reference" one!
I had in mind something like this, made from scraps:
All you need is for the green surface to be flat and the blue one to be reasonably perpendicular to it. nothing else matters. You can write on the blue one (white MFC would be a good choice, as you can wipe pencil off it with meths). All the thing does is allow you to set the blade of the square down on the recording surface (because of the slab thickness), and keep the stock from moving about,
You might finesse it with an elastic band, I guess, to hold the stock reasonably still. The advantage is that there's no precision required in the checking tool.
The four-corner system is better because it magnifies the error four times (this only does it twice). If the edge of the blue surface is straight, you could use it for both internal and external checks.
I had in mind something like this, made from scraps:
All you need is for the green surface to be flat and the blue one to be reasonably perpendicular to it. nothing else matters. You can write on the blue one (white MFC would be a good choice, as you can wipe pencil off it with meths). All the thing does is allow you to set the blade of the square down on the recording surface (because of the slab thickness), and keep the stock from moving about,
You might finesse it with an elastic band, I guess, to hold the stock reasonably still. The advantage is that there's no precision required in the checking tool.
The four-corner system is better because it magnifies the error four times (this only does it twice). If the edge of the blue surface is straight, you could use it for both internal and external checks.
Attachments
adidat
I will not buy anymore tools...
Starrett combination square, I recall workshop heaven do a good deal on the four piece set.
Being using mine on site and in the workshop for about 6 years and still good as new! Sometimes it gets rusty or glue on and a quick wipe with fine wire wool and it looks fine!
Adidat
Being using mine on site and in the workshop for about 6 years and still good as new! Sometimes it gets rusty or glue on and a quick wipe with fine wire wool and it looks fine!
Adidat
toolsntat
Yep, I collect tools and tat
Have a look at https://www.workshopheaven.com/hand-too ... nders.html
If you need more information Matthew will be more than happy to hear from you.
By the way, check out his purchase ethics, lifetime warranty and free returns =D>
Cheers
Andy
If you need more information Matthew will be more than happy to hear from you.
By the way, check out his purchase ethics, lifetime warranty and free returns =D>
Cheers
Andy
thetyreman
Established Member
I've got a starrett, they are well worth it, I've got the 150mm try square and the combination square, both are invaluable and used on every project, you will still have them in 20-30 years time, unlike a cheaper one, but obviously it's expensive initially.
transatlantic
Boom!
squares are an odd thing for me. If I buy an expensive one, then I don't want to use it in fear of dropping it (I often drop things). Yet if I buy a cheap one, then I don't trust it.
A good compromise is to buy a quality square that you only use for reference. This is used to purchase a cheaper square (ideally you'd take it to the shop with you), and also to check that your cheaper square hasn't gone out of square every now and then.
sods law though that you drop the expensive square when comparing it against the cheaper square.
I'll say it again! .. someone needs to come out with an adjustable square! .. one that has a wee bit of wiggle room that we can set ourselves using the flip trick (which is good enough for woodwork)
A good compromise is to buy a quality square that you only use for reference. This is used to purchase a cheaper square (ideally you'd take it to the shop with you), and also to check that your cheaper square hasn't gone out of square every now and then.
sods law though that you drop the expensive square when comparing it against the cheaper square.
I'll say it again! .. someone needs to come out with an adjustable square! .. one that has a wee bit of wiggle room that we can set ourselves using the flip trick (which is good enough for woodwork)
woodbrains
Established Member
transatlantic":11wmk48h said:
Colen Clenton offers them in Australia.
Mike beat me to it but there might be one or two left here:
https://www.hntgordon.com.au/colen-clen ... tools.html
For jobs that don't require knife marking think about making one or two of your own in wood. A try square makes a great project to exercise your skills a bit and is a good way to make use of some smaller scraps while you're at it. And if you make one yourself you can be absolutely sure that it's square which far too many commercial squares can't manage (one job people, one job!)ScottGoddard":2z1nu64b said:
The oft-linked-to Hayward book on making your own tools has two of the common patterns made traditionally in British workshops, the first style suited to big squares (suggested size is 30" x 14.5") that might be useful for marking out sheet goods and is actually well suited to being made from ply so that there are fewer worries about warping down the line. The smaller one can be made down to pocket size if you like, which can be surprisingly useful.
There are also quite a number of others described online today if you'd prefer to go with a different construction method, many of them rely on built-up stocks so that no mortising is necessary and this can much more easily give a perfect fit of the blade in the stock.
I bought one of these and was pretty disgusted tbh. The price point suggested it was a premium product, the amount of filler though.....woodbrains":epf1v5j7 said:
A replacement was sent, it was better but still had quite a bit of filler. I know it doesn't effect it's use, but jeepers can't they drill a fkin hole without tearing it out !!!
The square joins only one other thing I've been embarrassed about buying for the shop.
I bought a 6inch marples and it's much better than this bells and whistles thing.
Avoid would be my advice.
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
Edit- just to add the adjustment screws stick out, unlike the stock photo.
inexpensive combination squares can be adjusted to be perfectly square too (well, at least as good as your eyes/testing system allow).
Use one of the tests above to find out which direction it is out and then use a small needle file to take a little of one or other edge of the brass hook that holds the ruler until it is correct. Of course the ruler has to have parallel edges if you want both the inside and outside edges to be square.
I did this with a cheap bacho square and used it for years - the trouble is that I found it did not stay square in the long run. I don't suppose it really mattered for the DIY jobs I was using it for, but I followed the common advice and got a decent one for woodwork.
Use one of the tests above to find out which direction it is out and then use a small needle file to take a little of one or other edge of the brass hook that holds the ruler until it is correct. Of course the ruler has to have parallel edges if you want both the inside and outside edges to be square.
I did this with a cheap bacho square and used it for years - the trouble is that I found it did not stay square in the long run. I don't suppose it really mattered for the DIY jobs I was using it for, but I followed the common advice and got a decent one for woodwork.
Just get a quality engineers square and be done with it. Yes it's expensive but messing around trying to get a cheap a square that is square and sending the duffers back has got to a right pain in the backside. Moore and Wright is a good safe brand to start with.
