would you let someone use your shop?

[big soft moose]

I find it hard to belive that you are all talking about Liability and disclaimers etc , so a friend who has an interest in your hobby wants to set up his own place when he moves , you would be doing him a huge turn by helping him out and showing him your shop and how things work .

The best way to learn is by watching others and getting hands on with some tools , i presume you know the gent well seen as you work with him and im sure he is not a complete moron :roll:

The world has gone mad when you cant have a friend round to your workshop to learn a little about woodwork , unless your workshop is a trading buisness i cant see the problem , what happened to common sense ? if you think he is going to loose a finger or worse then show him where he is going wrong ..

So you invite a friend to your private workshop and he cuts his finger off on a saw, now this friend is an adult and makes his own decision to use the saw so he takes all liability for its use , when you buy a new tool you get a booklet that tells you how to use the machine you dont have to sign something saying that you wont take the manufacturer to court if you hurt yourself :roll:

If your that worried that he will sue you that you need him to sign a bit of paper then dont invite him round , personally i would say to him that you hold no responsibility for his safty and say it at work where someone can hear just tell him its his problem if he hurts himself :shock:

the problem is that when he cuts his hand off and subsequently cant work , even if he is a good work mate, he might then have the choice between losing his house and seeing his family go homeless and taking a law suit against you.

and unfortunately we have a surfeit of ambulance chasing lawyers (no offence intended to eith jake or PAC1) who will encourage him to do just that.

and your verbal agreement that its his problem if he hurts himself wont be worth the paper its not written on.

 

[big soft moose]

Jake / Big softmouse

Big softmouse is getting the point. You are deailing with the dutyof care to a novice not someone who knows the risk and can decide whether to accept it or not.

Nope - you are just switching horses from an occupier's liability to a negligence case, but reasonableness doesn't enter into the issue of exclusion of liability (only its otherwise-creation in the first place, which is irrelevant if you have excluded it) in either case - both are treated as negligence under UCTA and liability for personal injury and death can be excluded as between private individuals.

Jake yes I do deal with big contracts usually but UCTA had nothing to do with the example raised in this thread as there was no contract.

You're still missing the point, the disclaimer would be the contract in itself - the visitor accepting the risk in consideration of being let through the door.

I agree with you jake - but the one thing that troubles me is that a "disclaimer" drafted by a non lawyer like tombo or me will always be open to attack in court by someone much more knowledgable about the law ( it must be the case or you guys wouldnt have jobs).

Isnt that where reasonableness would come in - with the litigants lawyer arguing that the litigant was poorly advised and / or could not have been reasonable aware of all risks when he signed the disclaimer and therefore it is not binding.

I'm sure you could draft it in such a way that this attack would be defeated but I would not want to bet my house and family on my ability to draw one up that did. In fact If I was going the disclaimer route I would be inclined to visit a solicitor and get it done properly.

but that said I might be more inclined to say sorry mate but no can do - and instead offer to go with him to axminster or somewhere and help him buy a starter kit.

 

[PAC1]

Jake

I was not changing horses to common law negligence the OLA specifically calls the obligation a duty of care.

I do not see where the contract comes in if you invite a friend the law implies a presumption against a contract.

 

[big soft moose]

I think jake was saying that the signing of the disclaimer implies a contract between you. (I'm not a lawyer so i'm not going to get into this between you two - Two laywers in the same room = a legal wrangle )

 

[eggflan]

I find it hard to belive that you are all talking about Liability and disclaimers etc , so a friend who has an interest in your hobby wants to set up his own place when he moves , you would be doing him a huge turn by helping him out and showing him your shop and how things work .

The best way to learn is by watching others and getting hands on with some tools , i presume you know the gent well seen as you work with him and im sure he is not a complete moron :roll:

The world has gone mad when you cant have a friend round to your workshop to learn a little about woodwork , unless your workshop is a trading buisness i cant see the problem , what happened to common sense ? if you think he is going to loose a finger or worse then show him where he is going wrong ..

So you invite a friend to your private workshop and he cuts his finger off on a saw, now this friend is an adult and makes his own decision to use the saw so he takes all liability for its use , when you buy a new tool you get a booklet that tells you how to use the machine you dont have to sign something saying that you wont take the manufacturer to court if you hurt yourself :roll:

If your that worried that he will sue you that you need him to sign a bit of paper then dont invite him round , personally i would say to him that you hold no responsibility for his safty and say it at work where someone can hear just tell him its his problem if he hurts himself :shock:

the problem is that when he cuts his hand off and subsequently cant work , even if he is a good work mate, he might then have the choice between losing his house and seeing his family go homeless and taking a law suit against you.

and unfortunately we have a surfeit of ambulance chasing lawyers (no offence intended to eith jake or PAC1) who will encourage him to do just that.

and your verbal agreement that its his problem if he hurts himself wont be worth the paper its not written on.

I fail to see how he can sue even if he does chop his hand off , is he not responsible for his own actions :? he is not being forced to use the machines so he cant say "he made me do it" , if you trip over an uneven paving slab in the street then the local council can be held liable because it should have been repaired , but if you trip over your own feet then thats your own problem ..

If this is the case then we should not be allowed to sell on machines as the person who buys it can chop his hand off and then claim from you for not giving him the instuction booklet etc .

I understand the point about him loosing his house and job etc but i fail to see how the responsibility lays at the feet of Jake , if the chap was under 18 then fair enough but as an adult he makes the decision to use the tools on his own :roll:

 

[Jake]

I fail to see how he can sue even if he does chop his hand off , is he not responsible for his own actions :? he is not being forced to use the machines so he cant say "he made me do it" , if you trip over an uneven paving slab in the street then the local council can be held liable because it should have been repaired , but if you trip over your own feet then thats your own problem ..

In the absence of a disclaimer, you owe the duty of reasonable care to your visitor that PAC1 is talking about, and you would be liable in negligence for any poor advice/training you gave the bloke etc.

If this is the case then we should not be allowed to sell on machines as the person who buys it can chop his hand off and then claim from you for not giving him the instuction booklet etc .

No occupier's liability there, and the tool shop doesn't tell you how to use the tool (if they do, they ought to be careful about the advice they give or they would open themselves up to liability in just the same way).

I understand the point about him loosing his house and job etc but i fail to see how the responsibility lays at the feet of Jake , if the chap was under 18 then fair enough but as an adult he makes the decision to use the tools on his own :roll:

It depends what you did. If, say, you encouraged him to or let him use a table saw without a riving knife etc, and he wasn't in a position to know better, you could well be in trouble - and for good reason too.

 

[PAC1]

Jake

I think I might agree with that!

 

[13eightyfour]

I wouldnt let just 'anybody' use my tools, but ive got a very close friend that found out 2 hours ago that as of next friday he wont have a job. Hev has asked if he can come and help me out while hes finding a new job, Im quite happy to let him use the machines because ive known him since i was 10, hes always careful when hes used them in the past, and i have no reason to think he'd be careless this time.