Watching Norm NYW - is translation needed?

[glynster]

Hi, I'm brand new to woodworking and brand new to this forum. I'm heading out tomorrow to buy my first ever table saw (Axminster TS-200 after some research) and router (Erbauer 2100 watt - just because I reckon more power = equals more fun) and have been buying a small selection of hand tools. Of course, a little looking around and asking and everybody has pointed me to the videos on youtube of our lord and saviour Norm (blessed be his name) from New Yankee Workshop. I'm loving the videos and watching with intent. However, having watched a few videos on using a table saw correctly and safely, I must admit that Norm (peace be upon him) has got me confused because he seems to break most rules like trimming a few mill off a board with the board right up against the fence where it could jam, shoot back and finally remove those safety glasses that I think he sleeps in. I get that he had to remove the safety and riving knife for clarity but - do I need to watch out for anything else in the way he and other yanks use table saws because it seems to be it's a recognised bloodsport over there. Seems because their (the yanks) dont have the same kind of kit as us mere mortals that they are a lot more cavalier with it - am I right?

Also, maybe a stupid question, but do I really need plans to make things? I purchased the excellent "cabinetmaking: how to design and construct furniture that works" by Bill Hyton and while there are no exact measurements it strikes me that the exploded drawings are enough for me to do some basic maths and set about building something simple like a coffee table. Am I making a schoolboy error there? I looked around for woodworking plans and they are all scammy looking "4gigs / 50,000 woodworking plans" crammed onto a dvd for £4.99 ebay-****-jobs - kind of overwhelming and I'm guessing somebody just trawled all the free ones online an put them onto a DVD unsorted and unclassified.

 

[JustBen]

Hi, welcome to the forum.

There are a few differences between UK and USA woodworking (mainly names)
Their rabbet is our rebate,
Their jonter is our planer/surface planer,
Their planer is our thicknesser.

A lot of their saws take/use dado blade (multiple blades for a single wider cut)
Over here, a lot of machines have short arbors I presume to stop people using stacked blades as they are seen by most as dangerous.
At the end of the day, it's all about what you feel is safe for your level of skill.
If it doesn't feel right, don't do it.

As for plans, it depends what you are making.
I personally don't use plans and go with "yeah, that looks right'
If it's a custom size to fit in a particular hole/gap, then a plan will be of no help.

I would go with what you think looks right as it will be you who sees it.
A rough guide on sizes is usually enough to put you on the right track.

Hope this helps.

I'm sure others will add/correct me on the UK/USA differences.

 

[marcros]

Plans are not really necessary. An understanding of proportions helps, but that is really just based on what looks right anyway.

 

[glynster]

Thanks for the sage advice. Speaking of what feels safe for my level of skill (which is largely untested) I am wondering if I might feel more safe starting out with a bandsaw instead of a table saw as I must admit that they kind of intimidate me from the huge amount of warning and potential ways in which I could get kickback etc. Frankly, I'm amazed how you can even buy on without it coming with a training DVD or something. Am I right in saying that for simple project - knocking up a bathroom cabinet, coffee table etc - that a bandsaw would suffice? I've got a little PT85 planer/thicknesser (seems OK - to be honest its apparent shortcomings are probably more my inexperience and failings) and am buying a no7 plane for hand work for joining boards etc - least that way I'll know the discrepancies are down to me.

I dont want to open up a huge bandsaw/tablesaw debate but I'm in half a mind to wonder (at the final hour of planning to get a table saw these last 2 weeks) if in fact a bandsaw might be a better beginner tool. Or, should I just bite the bullet?

 

[lanemaux]

Welcome Glynster, you are in the right place for advice . Being new to the vocation as you state you are , much may be done in the vein of "craft" with a bandsaw , for ripping straight and true a good table saw is for you. However , if you would like to do some more relaxing wood butchery, and nearly silently , you might consider St. Roy of Underhill and the cathedral of Woodwrights Shop. An older show than others that proclaim primacy, St. Roy is unconcerned by others and has a turn the other spindle (with foot powered lathes) policy , all are welcome , none turned away. Go to "The Woodwrights Shop" through google and pick a video to watch, from at least 6 seasons of stored shows in their entirety. That is from 33 years of programming . One of my favorites is "The Spirit of Woodcraft " a jolly soliloquy of 22 minutes with no cuts for commercials. Remember to drop by and see our Hand Tools ward to watch the fun . See you there.

 

[rdesign]

table saws are dangerous! but safe if you keep 2 a few rules:
never remove the rife knife set it just below the height of the blade this allows you still to cut grooves when the blade guard is removed.

always when crosscutting with a slider or mite gauge on you table saw, keep the fence back before the blade only use it as a depth stop, this stops anything getting trapped and kicking.

have an area of at least 4 inches in front of the blade and 2 to the right thats a no hand zone and definitely never push a piece thats small between the blade and fence. use push sticks whenever possible on small pieces large pieces give you enough space to hold and keep them safe.

these r just a few basics a lot of it is just instincts. like don't push the stock through the blade straight have your force going North east if that makes sense that will keep it tight to the fence.

a band saw and a table saw both work and both will need hand planning to get to glue or sanding stage.

I don't own a bandsaw or does the commercial millwork place i work at! its in america and yes no rifing knifes or guards r used and only full length fences. i'm trying to chance that but they seem to think safety features are stupid and unmanly...

good look its a great skill and hobby to have!
regards Richard

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Plans are not really necessary. An understanding of proportions helps, but that is really just based on what looks right anyway.

Golden proportion, catenary curves and Fibonacci series are worth a read up on. :idea:

 

[Benchwayze]

A table-saw never harmed anyone; until some idiot switched it on and began taking liberties with it.

I think it's possible to learn the 'rules' from books and magazines, but nothing beats the 'hands on with supervision' experience. My advice is to take some evening classes in machine woodworking, if you can. That will ease you through the intimidation period with a saw. A bandsaw is less intimidating, but it can still take off fingers before you realise they're gone. You just have to pay full attention to what you are doing. That's the best advice I can give.

One other thing, instill in other members of your family, that if they hear the machine running they should NOT interrupt you.

Anyway, welcome to the forum and to the craft. Once bitten, you'll never let go...

John

 

[Benchwayze]

Plans are not really necessary. An understanding of proportions helps, but that is really just based on what looks right anyway.

Golden proportion, catenary curves and Fibonacci series are worth a read up on. :idea:

And someone once devised a horse-racing system based on Fibonacci!
I was never any good with that kind of maths... :mrgreen:

 

[bugbear]

Plans aren't really needed - a good reference book on furniture making will show you how the various basic bits are made and jointed.

But.

Designs are needed, and are hard. Getting the proportions and shapes right, even in something as trivial as a cofffee table, is hard.

Consider the basic design - 4 legs, 4 rails/aprons and a top. Simple, but the width/lenght ratio of the top, the shape
of the top, edge treatments, the depth and possible moulding (or detailing) of the apron, the thickness of the legs,
possible tape of the legs, round legs, square legs...

The permutations are basically infinite, and not all of them look good.

BugBear

 

[Steve Maskery]

You are asking all the right questions and you show a healthy skepticism (sic) for American workshop practices. Norm's guard hasn't been removed for clarity, it's been removed because it is inconvenient and he can't be bothered to find other ways to do the job safely. He is a very experienced worker, but the problem is when someone less experienced tries to copy him and comes a cropper. He is not a good example to copy, in that respect.

There is nothing wrong with removing the guard on your machine, provided that you replace with another one which allows you to do the job but also keeps your fingers and the blade separate from each other. I have three different guards on mine and I choose the most appropriate one for the job.

By all means use Norm as inspiration to get cracking making something, but take your workshop practices from Europe, not from the USA.

As to your choice of machines, the Axi TS200 has a good reputation, the Erbauer stuff is cheap and cheerful.

Plans are useful when you start out, especially if you don't yet know what joint is used for what type of construction. It's much easier to use a dowel joint rather than a proper mortice and tenon, and the end result will look the same... for a while at least. But knowing where to use a M&T and what size to make it for the job in hand will make your project much better. Plans are useful for those sorts of proportions, as well as the aesthetic reasons mentioned above. When you outgrow them you will be able to design your own, using good ground rules that you will, by then, be familiar with.

+1 for Phi and Fibonacci.

Enjoy the journey.
S

 

[Tony Spear]

Plans aren't really needed - a good reference book on furniture making will show you how the various basic bits are made and jointed.

But.

Designs are needed, and are hard. Getting the proportions and shapes right, even in something as trivial as a cofffee table, is hard.

Consider the basic design - 4 legs, 4 rails/aprons and a top. Simple, but the width/lenght ratio of the top, the shape
of the top, edge treatments, the depth and possible moulding (or detailing) of the apron, the thickness of the legs,
possible tape of the legs, round legs, square legs...

The permutations are basically infinite, and not all of them look good.

BugBear

Bugbear is right about books - the Collins "Complete Woodworkers Manual" is an excellent starting point for a beginner, as it covers a lot of basic stuff from how trees grow and types of wood, through principles of construction (chairs, tables, bookcases, drawer making etc.) through tools (hand and power) right through to nails and screws and when and where to use them!

As far as design is concerned, one of the things I do, is if a see a piece I like, I take some photographs and basic measurements and do a few sketches (if necessary) to remind me of how the thing is actually put together!

For example - there's some interesting bench type seating in the reception area of one of the main Oxford hospitals, but I keep forgetting to take a damn camera whenever I go there!

 

[Brian½]

table saws are dangerous! but safe if you keep 2 a few rules:
never remove the rife knife set it just below the height of the blade this allows you still to cut grooves when the blade guard is removed.

regards Richard

I bought a DeWalt 745 table saw which has a riving knife to which the guard is attached, the riving knife is therefore much higher than the saw blade and is impossible to lower below the height of the blade. As far as I can see the only solution would be to remove it.

 

[Myfordman]

table saws are dangerous! but safe if you keep 2 a few rules:
never remove the rife knife set it just below the height of the blade this allows you still to cut grooves when the blade guard is removed.

regards Richard

I bought a DeWalt 745 table saw which has a riving knife to which the guard is attached, the riving knife is therefore much higher than the saw blade and is impossible to lower below the height of the blade. As far as I can see the only solution would be to remove it.

You need to modify the riving knife - basically shorten it so that no part is higher than the top of the blade, and then modify the guard so that it will attached to the knife when required and be removable too. some sort of L shaped slot usually fits the bill.

 

[glynster]

Thanks for the helpful replies. I appreciate what Steve says about "take your workshop practices from Europe, not from the USA" but it seems all of the watchable and more complete series of how to vids on Youtube are based in the USA - are there any good Euro-table saw ones? Ideally ones that teach creating a full piece (say a table or simple cabinet) from scratch?

I just dont see how I would cut a rabbet/rebate or a dado on a table saw without removing the guard and in any case it seems lethal to me and my immediate feelings are that I'd rather do that with a router - albeit a little more cumbersome to set up for.

What I dont get, is that one minute Norm says to ensure that you use a block of wood against the fence set back a little from the blade for safety or else you get kickback - thats noted and makes sense - but then in the next video he'll rip a full board right up against the fence which looks to me like it could jamb any second - am I missing something here?

I went ahead and bought the TS-250 table saw - got upsold, but I am happy about it. However, due to zero stock within Axminster company I have to wait for it to be delivered - apparantly there are none in the country right now but they are due this week.

I did buy the full size Dakota router table (Rutlands) and the Bosch POF 1200 router (yes, I have spent quite a bit without so much as a woodshaving to show for it yet). I now have to work out how to fit the 2 together. I am already wondering if I have made a mistake as I dont see how I will raise or lower the router even when I have screwed it to the base of the table. Plus, the router takes huge pressure to plunge it and even when locked into the down position, the collet doesnt protrude below its plate so I dont see how I will access it from the table. Obviously there are no instructions since they are seperate units.

Who would have thought woodworking would involve so much mechanics.

Thanks again for all fo your advice - this seems a very helpful and friendly community.

 

[Steve Maskery]

If you want something excellent from NYW, buy Norm's plans for his Deluxe Router table. It uses 1 1/2 sheets ply and is put together with housings and rebates (except that he calls them dadoes and rabbets). It's an excellent design. The only downside is that all the measurements are in inches rather than mm.

As far as guarding is concerned, I got rid of my riving-knife-mounted crown guard and built a SUVA-style one. It is much better and is a nice little project in itself. You can see its predecessor on many of my YT videos.

S

 

[rdesign]

"What I dont get, is that one minute Norm says to ensure that you use a block of wood against the fence set back a little from the blade for safety or else you get kickback - thats noted and makes sense - but then in the next video he'll rip a full board right up against the fence which looks to me like it could jamb any second - am I missing something here?"

when ripping a long piece you can have a long fence keeping it pushed tight against the fence till you pass the blade and the piece is safe.

the block against the fence to prevent kick back is when cross cutting. when using a mitre gauge you will be holding the piece to the left of the blade if the fence was all the way up past the blade after the cut is cut it doesn't have any space to fall away from the fence then a kick back can happen.

hope that makes sense can take pictures on monday to demo if needed

regards Richard

p.s. can't figure out the quote thing :/

 

[paul-c]

welcome Glynster
you are definately right to say "this seems a very helpful and friendly community."
i have found there to be plenty of advice to help me along whenever i have needed it.
may i just say, something helped me along when i bought my bandsaw and felt like i had made a huge mistake in my purchase, another forum member ( not Steve Maskery ) recommended Steve's dvd's to me ( Workshop Essentials Your complete workshop companion.) so i watched a couple of clips on utube and took the plunge and ordered a set .
my bandsaw is now wonderful - i ordered some blades from Ian at tuffsaws set up my bandsaw following steves guidance on the dvd's - its a completely different machine and a pleasure to use instead of the frustration i used to get with it.
im sure other people will agree with my recomendations , you will find them money well spent.
best of luck
paul-c

 

[Steve Maskery]

when ripping a long piece you can have a long fence keeping it pushed tight against the fence till you pass the blade and the piece is safe.

I would counsel against that. It's all very well saying "keeping it pushed tight against the fence" but the forces in nature are great and if the board has tension in it, no amount of pushing by you with overcome that.

A short rip fence, however, set correctly, will support the board before it is cut and allow it to do whatever it likes afterwards, without pushing into the blade. That's why on proper industrial rip saws the fence only goes as far as the blade.

The long fence typically supplied with a TS is fine for dealing with man-made boards that don't move, but it is not good for ripping. Either pull it right back so that it stops after the front teeth but before TDC, or made a secondary, sorter rip fence. I use the latter, it is a much safer option.

You are asking all the right questions, but you do need to understand the risks. When I bought my first TS, I didn't and I have a scar to prove it.

Paul - thank you.

S

 

[rdesign]

i mean a fence just past the blade steve european style and a dense just before the blade for cross cutting. when ripping you keep in contact with the piece so it is less likely to twist and catch the back teeth and cause a kick back/ c cut.