I was going to say it might be worth posting on http://festoolownersgroup.com/ but looks like someone has already done so and linked to this.
WARNING ABOUT USING SENECA ADAPTER WITH XL700 DOMINO
- Thread starter Adam9453
- Start date
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I was going to ask if someone could do it as i'm not a member on the festool owners group forum. I think the chap from festool was going to put some better technical information regarding the issue on there as well.
Distinterior
Established Member
I've got a Festool End User Team manager coming to see me tomorrow and I already had quite a few questions for him......now I've got another one for him!!!!
Paddy Roxburgh
Established Member
I must say I'm rather with Bob's conspiracy theory on this. I am really struggling with the dynamics that would cause the gearbox to fail by using the adapter. If it were the other way around and the adapter allowed bigger bits to be used with the smaller machine I could see it, but how can using a smaller bit with a shallower plunge damage the gearbox, I just can't see it.
Adam, I have a question, did you have the alignment issues only when using the adapter or was it the same when using the 700 bits?
Adam, I have a question, did you have the alignment issues only when using the adapter or was it the same when using the 700 bits?
I didn't try changing to the 700 cutters as I use the 5mm cutter most often.
I can certainly understand why people may think it's just festool trying to ensure people keep buying both tools but I consider myself a good judge as to whether I'm being lied to and I didn't detect anything iffy when I spoke to festool
I also can see what you mean about it not being entirely logical that smaller cutters+adapter would damage the gearbox as opposed to more logically a larger cutter damaging a gearbox. I'm afraid I can only relay what festool told me.
Hopefully their tech guy will post a better technical explanation either on here or on fog
I can certainly understand why people may think it's just festool trying to ensure people keep buying both tools but I consider myself a good judge as to whether I'm being lied to and I didn't detect anything iffy when I spoke to festool
I also can see what you mean about it not being entirely logical that smaller cutters+adapter would damage the gearbox as opposed to more logically a larger cutter damaging a gearbox. I'm afraid I can only relay what festool told me.
Hopefully their tech guy will post a better technical explanation either on here or on fog
Paddy Roxburgh
Established Member
If Festool are being 100% honest and machines are being damaged by using the adapter then the only mechanism I can see for this is that perhaps the adapter is not perfectly centered and this creates some side loading force that can (somehow) damage the gearbox. I wonder how good the QC is at Seneca, and for that matter the UK Seneca rip off that is available on Ebay.
I've weighed the 12mm xl700 cutter and the 5mm df500 cutter plus Seneca adapter and there was only 2 grams difference in weight so I'd be surprised if weight is causing the issue.
The diameter of the adapter is the same as the xl700 cutter so I can't see an issue there.
The main difference is that the xl700 cutters quickly step down to the cutter diameter whereas the adapter obviously doesn't (the adapter is straight sided). This is really the only thing I think could foul anything but I can't see that it does hit anything.
Mechanically I'm really struggling to understand what could be causing an issue with the gearbox.
Hopefully someone cleverer than me can figure it out
The diameter of the adapter is the same as the xl700 cutter so I can't see an issue there.
The main difference is that the xl700 cutters quickly step down to the cutter diameter whereas the adapter obviously doesn't (the adapter is straight sided). This is really the only thing I think could foul anything but I can't see that it does hit anything.
Mechanically I'm really struggling to understand what could be causing an issue with the gearbox.
Hopefully someone cleverer than me can figure it out
custard
Established Member
Complete guess, but maybe the thinner cutters + Seneca adapter are flexing more than the thicker "standard" 700 cutters. And this flexing/additional vibration is being transmitted to the gearbox and causing problems? Maybe the deal is that with additional plunge depth/cutter length of the 700 Domino you can't drop below a certain diameter of cutter without risking damage? An analogy might be with a router cutter, if the cutter length beyond the collet is say 25mm you can safely use a 1mm diameter cutter, but if the cutter length beyond the collet is say 75mm then the smallest diameter cutter you can safely use might increase to say 3mm?
chippy1970
Established Member
I remember reading about this ages ago on the FOG. Back then it was mentioned that the 700 is built to use the bigger diameter cutters so using the smaller cutters messes up the gearbox. I'm no engineer so can't confirm this.
Not surprising that they don't like these adapters you can't blame them.
Sent from my ALE-L21 using Tapatalk
Not surprising that they don't like these adapters you can't blame them.
Sent from my ALE-L21 using Tapatalk
ComfortablyNumb
Established Member
I asked the guy who's head of customer service about this last year and he said he wouldn't recommend using smaller cutters as the peripheral speed would be to low so would strain the machine. Now I understand what he meant. There's 4500 rpm difference between the 2 machines so it does make sense
Distinterior
Established Member
It would be interesting to hear what Seneca have to say about this as I'm sure Adam is'nt the only one who has come across this problem, especially as Adam has said, Festool have had a few XL700's in for repair that have had similar issues.
If Seneca are knowingly selling accessories that void the Festool warranty ???...!!!!
If Seneca are knowingly selling accessories that void the Festool warranty ???...!!!!
Any after market accessory that is not the original manufactures product will void the warranty if the manufacturer wants it to, even changing the plug on white goods can void a warranty if the original manufacturer wants to be that pedantic.
This is the first time I have heard of the failure from a machine by putting a lighter load on it?
Mike
This is the first time I have heard of the failure from a machine by putting a lighter load on it?
Mike
custard
Established Member
MikeJhn":2mju9ulw said:
But it's not a lighter load Mike, as Comfortably Numb has cleverly pointed out, the peripheral speed on smaller cutters is considerably lower given the lower RPM of the 700 machine, so the smaller cutters are being dragged through the timber before they've had time to execute a clean cut.
Playing Devil's advocate: So what we are saying is the cutters from the 500 cannot operate at 21,000rpm, but must operate at 24,300rpm to prevent dragging through the wood and putting an excessive load on the bigger 700 machine, Hmmm I wonder what the difference in speed is from the fluctuations in the National Grid or even the resistance drop in the electrical cable run too/in most workshops? or even if the sharpness/age of the cutter makes any difference?
I think one of the earlier posters had the right idea, its a manufacturer trying to ensure both machines are bought, this is nothing against Festool its what all manufactures would do in the circumstances, ensuring continuity of sales of the first product after they realise there is a market for a larger machine.
Mike
I think one of the earlier posters had the right idea, its a manufacturer trying to ensure both machines are bought, this is nothing against Festool its what all manufactures would do in the circumstances, ensuring continuity of sales of the first product after they realise there is a market for a larger machine.
Mike
acewoodturner
Established Member
I don't own any Festool kit so don't have any axe to grind or boasting to do!. I am following this thread with interest as I am possibly going to buy a domino one day. I did go onto the FOG when this thread was started and had a look about. I looked at one thread where several people have had problems with their Kapex saws and Festool, although aware of the long term problem, seem to be reluctant to sort it out. They come across as rather aloof with a superiority attitude and this doesn't bode well for any owner of a bit of kit from them. The fact that it is the most expensive kit available by quite a large margin and users are willing to part with large sums of money to buy accurate and long lasting kit, says a lot for their reputation and marketing. It takes a lot to build up a good reputation, and even longer to become a top seller when there a lot of cheaper options available and you are still shifting large quantities of your goods. To have a 'we know best' attitude and ignore user problems isn't a good way to deal with these issues and may eventually bite them on the bum!
With regard to the domino/Seneca combination and the alignment /gearbox issue, I find it rather strange. There is a 2g difference in weight so that cant be the problem. No one has said the Seneca adaptor is badly made so I would think that there is minimum run out when it is spinning and it would be out of balance or causing excessive vibration if it was. The difference in rpm between the two models isn't that great and these machines are designed/ made with pretty good tolerances as stated before, not everyones leccy is the same, and this is taken into account. If the rpm is a couple of thou down the user would just move it a bit slower, as anyone who uses a router would know to slow down when using a bigger router cutter as opposed to one of a smaller diameter. The Seneca adaptor has been available for several years and probably have sold quite a lot of them. Why has it suddenly become a problem? Surely if it wasn't suitable this would have become evident from the start and Festool would have issued a warning when this problem first appeared.
The only conclusion I can come to is that they wish to sell both models rather than just the one and this is there way of ensuring that users who need to use both sizes buy both models. Not a good way to do business in my opinion, but then this isn't the first time they have been caught out. Anyone remember the price fixing issues of a few years ago?
Mike
With regard to the domino/Seneca combination and the alignment /gearbox issue, I find it rather strange. There is a 2g difference in weight so that cant be the problem. No one has said the Seneca adaptor is badly made so I would think that there is minimum run out when it is spinning and it would be out of balance or causing excessive vibration if it was. The difference in rpm between the two models isn't that great and these machines are designed/ made with pretty good tolerances as stated before, not everyones leccy is the same, and this is taken into account. If the rpm is a couple of thou down the user would just move it a bit slower, as anyone who uses a router would know to slow down when using a bigger router cutter as opposed to one of a smaller diameter. The Seneca adaptor has been available for several years and probably have sold quite a lot of them. Why has it suddenly become a problem? Surely if it wasn't suitable this would have become evident from the start and Festool would have issued a warning when this problem first appeared.
The only conclusion I can come to is that they wish to sell both models rather than just the one and this is there way of ensuring that users who need to use both sizes buy both models. Not a good way to do business in my opinion, but then this isn't the first time they have been caught out. Anyone remember the price fixing issues of a few years ago?
Mike
