(Unheated) Porch Replacement?

[Dibs-h]

Chaps,

The existing porch has kind of had it - rotten and leaking, so time to think about it's replacement. We're on the top of a hill and one side of it would be rather exposed to the weather - evidenced by how the existing one has fared.

Green oak or some softwood that is painted?

It would look something like:

although not coming quite as far out. Maybe 2/3's as the one on the picture and a little narrower (width wise).

I'd always fancied a glazed curved (arched) roof.

If you look at the picture - the front corner, the bottom "horizontal" has it's end grain visible. For some reason, I thought it was better not to do it that way and have the end grain of the corner post "sat" on the stonework and the horizontal go into that and therefor not exposed? If that makes sense?

Edit: like in the following picture:

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Dibs

 

[MikeG.]

Yep, lots.

Firstly, is exposed oak a vernacular material in your area, and even if it is, would it suit your house? Porches are difficult things to get right. They're often too tall, and often have too much glazing (which your design could be accused of). They have to be judged with respect to the facade of the building they are attached to, so seeing a photo of your front elevation would help a lot. They're very often made of the wrong materials, too.

Secondly, details are everything with oak framing, and particularly with showy things like porches. The first thing I notice is that you are sitting the sole plate on the plinth with no overhang, and that needs very careful detailing if you do. Secondly, the brickwork in the photo is stretcher bond, but an oak frame would always have sat on a 9" wall, so you would expect to see English bond, English garden wall bond, or, most likely, Flemish bond. It makes a huge difference, and I hope your rendered model reflects your thinking on this. Personally, I think the plinth is much too high in both.

Thirdly, your wall plates above the windows are shown at the same level sides and front, but they shouldn't be. The tie beam (along the front, would always have been quarter-lapped onto the side wall plates, which would almost always have projected past the joint and the corner posts with a chamfered front face, not the shaped piece you've shown which leaves a big shelf for water to collect on, leading to rotting. You would also expect to see the end of a projecting ridge beam supported on the central post on the front of the facade.

A biggie is the detail at the foot of posts. Traditional oak joinery never sat posts directly onto anything other than a sole plate, and you'd be making a big mistake to move away from that. Sitting load-bearing posts directly onto brickwork is structurally a bad idea (it will break the bricks eventually), really doesn't work visually, and would be a nightmare to weather-seal properly. On top of all that, it would complicate construction.

Rafters traditionally (but not exclusively) sprang from the tie beams, rather than being birdsmouthed over the end, and a sprocket fixed to the rafter would kick the bottom few rows of tiles upwards a bit...........with a very different shape to the end from that you've shown (which is very modern, and designed for boxed eaves (ie soffits and fascias).

Luckily, I built one earlier, so you can take a look at what I am talking about. There's more here, with the doors and other associated porch stuff.

 

[Dibs-h]

Hi Mike,

Firstly - many thanks for your comments & posting a link to your porch build.

Yes - not entirely sure an oak porch may suit the house. I'll post up a front elevation picture in the morning when it's light.

The picture showing the porch on brick walls - in all fairness, I only posted that up to show the corner post joint with the lower horizontal (no idea what the proper name is) - nothing more.

I think you've answered my question - in that the corner post joint should look more like picture 1 above (albeit sat on an oak cill), ignoring the brick wall and not as picture 2.

The walls in my case would be stone - with a large stone cill covering the top, that's not to say I'm not taking on board your comments about an oak cill.

Ignore, if you can the issues with the rest of the picture - I quickly googled to find a picture that showed the front corner cost & horizontal joint. Not realising there was a great deal else wrong with it. And in all fairness, not knowing either - so good to learn on those aspects.

One last question (for now), the bridled mitre joint at the front corner of the cill,

could it be done such that "tongue" doesn't come all the way out and expose end grain? Or is that not relevant\necessary?

I'll be going thru your build thread over the next few days and hopefully learn more and have less stupid questions to ask. At this stage, it's all about learning - what to do and what not to do. Many thanks for your very informative comments so far & thanks in advance for the future ones.

Thanks

Dibs

 

[MikeG.]

Neither of those pictures is right, Dibs, but 2 is more right than 1.

A bridle joint is the best joint for a corner because it resists rotation and twisting in both plates. I did a mitred bridle because I stuffed up a rebate internally, and it was the best way out of the problem. Don't worry about the exposed end grain. I can show you 700 year old examples where the end grain on a corner bridle joint is fine.

 

[Dibs-h]

I see what you mean about 2 being more right that 1 - once I'd read most of your porch thread and paid attention at the pictures.

 

[Dibs-h]

Hi Mike,

Below is a picture of the front elevation,

There's a whole host of things wrong with the bay roof, LOL. It's on my list of things to do shortly - just need a spot of mild weather.

The total height I've got to play with is around 10 feet - to the stone banding separating the stone from the render.

The following shows the stone wall\cill,

The plan is to rebuild the wall so that the entrance to the porch is from the from the front rather than the left side (looking from the front). There are currently 3 large stone cills, allowing me to use 1.5 on each side and get the sort of depth I want. Also having the right hand side of it (looking from the front) where the down pipe is (which will need moving) so that it covers the small window to the right of the internal door. In which case the left side would be equidistant from door so it looks balanced.

The existing stonework doesn't match the house, so I'd probably rebuild the porch wall with stonework to match the house far better.

I saw the following porch a few years ago and thought it looked rather nice (not to say it probably doesn't have it's issues and obviously mine will be sat on a dwarf wall) and took a picture - probably drawn to the colour more than anything else.

Thanks

Dibs

 

[MikeG.]

Hmmmm, that's a mixture, Dibs! Stone, brick, and cement render.

Porches on corners are problematic, as are two sticky-out bits side-by-side. Have you got a photo more from the side of the house, showing the projection of the current porch, and maybe a bit of the side elevation. A general street view would be useful, too. What part of the country are you?

My initial reaction is that this isn't an obvious house for an oak-framed outshot. Not of the post and beam variety. I could see a more formal oak porch in joinery (rather than framing) doing quite nicely there. I can imagine one or two quite modern designs would go well there too.

 

[Dibs-h]

These short days are a nuisance. Lol

I'll post up a side elevation/projection in the morning.

It's stone on the ground floor with lime render with limestone chippings on the upper part.

I'm fairly sure it's the original render and lime based. It's been up for the last 100yrs and the brickwork upstairs is bedded on lime mortar.

When you say "oak porch in joinery" would that still be green oak or air/kiln dried?

Thanks

Dibs

 

[Dibs-h]

I'll post up a picture giving the idea of the general street scene tomorrow, too. Just on the edge of Bradford towards the Aire valley.

 

[Dibs-h]

Hi Mike,

Here's a side elevation showing the side of the porch,

The porch comes out around 135cm but the bay comes out around 95cm.

At the top of the road, there's basically just us and the semi next door - a mirror of ours but just a bay on the front, no porch.

And this opposite,

Nothing else really apart from the stone entrance ways to a few long drives with the houses not visible from the road.

Any suggestion\thoughts? I kind of do like the grey painted one I posted earlier - albeit sat on dwarf walls and maybe not a flat roof - but it's probably the colour that I'm drawn to more than anything else. LOL

Cheers

Dibs

 

[MikeG.]

Yeah, I'd say that doesn't work with a big lumpy oak frame, personally. Bradford isn't renowned for them anyway, to put it mildly. I'll have a think, but I'm up against a work deadline, so it may be a while.

 

[Dibs-h]

On my travels round these parts i haven't really spotted any post/beam construction porches or houses.

The area we're in is fairly period - mostly edwardian.

Might have to go walking in the neighbouring streets and have a closer look at the kinds of porches there might be.

No rush - probably won't do doing anything till Feb/Mar. Just a case of getting some ideas and settling on one. And then figuring out the construction.

Cheers

Abid

 

[Bm101]

When you say "oak porch in joinery" would that still be green oak or air/kiln dried?
Dibs

I think if you're talking green oak you are looking at more traditional practice Dibs. Oak framing and so on was done with the timber green because it was easy to cut. As it dried it shrank and strengthened. Very clever stuff really.
Just because I have the book (maybe there's better), you might want to look at Rupert Newmans book. I believe you are supposed to get the revised one. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listi ... w&qid=&sr=
Paid a little less for mine but that's fair price for a cracking book that will get you up to speed with the basics/terminology/tools etc etc. May have one in your local library if you order it in?
Joinery would be dried timber.
Not trying to talk outside my skillset. So apologies.
I have a long love of framing in buildings but I've never attempted it so that should let you know how much I know in comparison with Mike... Amateur opinions compared to qualified experience. Still.
:wink:
But I tend to agree for what little it's worth. If it's out of character it will look it. You can't fudge it in beyond a certain point. You could Modernise It though.
Whether it looks odd on your house is for you to decide. If you are dead set on it then anything is possible if you have the mindset.

I actually did some rope access re- training at a climbing centre very near this new build a few years ago and saw this guys house.
Personally. I think it's wonderfuI not only because he apparantly designed it for an imaginary Sea Captain. Forgive the snide reporting style. It's from The Mail (*Hisses/Bares teeth/Does Crooked Finger Claws*) and the only Source I could find. In reality it fits far more than the photos suggest. Reports of the neighbours revolting were initially true, understandably. But One Old Man I invented as a source since we're invoking the DailyMaily said 'I don't want to be identified but I don't agree with it. It smacks of witchcraft. We always lived in 2 up 2 downs in this street and threw our sick babies in the River Hoo and will continue to do so. This outsider from 3 streets away won't change our ways. We have been doing this since 1983. We aren't about to change now. People 'll be talking 'bou' wa'king the 1.23 miles an' droppin babes into the stream behind Frindsbury Lawn tennis Club soon. It's Heresy.

If you've never been to The Isle of Grain.
Well done. Carry on doing that.
:shock:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ratch.html

Back to reality.

I wonder if this sort of affair might be an idea. You get the elevation, roof height and light.
I think that's quite elegant.
(stolen from quick search 'contemporary' oak porch rather than 'modern' which brings a lot of framing.. Who knew? )

Maybe some slighty thicker oak joinery could give you what you want if you fancy a halfway house?
I'll be quiet now. Let the experts talk. Sorry.

Cheers and regards as always,
Chris

 

[Dibs-h]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the reply\info - greatly appreciated. I do like the look of the last picture (porch) you posted.

I'll have a look at Google's images on Contemporary Porches. Half the time it's down to figuring out what to search for.

For some unexplained reason - LOL - I fancy one with an arched (half round - looking from the front - thingie) glazed roof. Although that might change once I get closer to design\build.

Thanks

Dibs

 

[MikeG.]

..........For some unexplained reason - LOL - I fancy one with an arched (half round - looking from the front - thingie) glazed roof. Although that might change once I get closer to design\build. ........

I think the price might have helped you come to a decision!

 

[Dibs-h]

Once I get to a design\spec\etc. and get a price for the glazed roof, I might just quietly change my mind. But since I'm not going to be paying any labour for the build\install - sometimes I do consider things which ordinarily would be well out of reach.

But you do have a point. LOL

 

[HOJ]

If you are familiar with using Sketchup, you can import the image of the front elevation, scale it to size, place it in a separate layer (which you can then toggle on and off) and draw over it, this will help you to get the full perspective and impact of any design considerations relative to its setting, before you spend too much time on a construction design.

You may also need to produce drawings for a planning application as this will be on the front of the house, worth checking local rules.

 

[Dibs-h]

HOJ

Thanks for the reply. I tried Sketchup years ago and coming from an AutoCad background, just didn't gell with it for some reason. LOL.

Failing that - probably just do it in AutoCad. Although the importing of the image into Sketchup sounds attractive. so definitely a reason to have another go.

I think it will be exempt from PP as it's a replacement for an existing one, and I vaguely remember as long as it's under 3m2 it remains so. Might just be a BR matter. Nonetheless - will definitely check with both PP & BR and get it in writing.

Cheers

Dibs

 

[MikeG.]

.......I think it will be exempt from PP as it's a replacement for an existing one, and I vaguely remember as long as it's under 3m2 it remains so. Might just be a BR matter. Nonetheless - will definitely check with both PP & BR and get it in writing.

You're exempt from PP unless you are in a conservation area or national park (+ a couple of others), under 3 sq m, less than 3m tall, and more than 2m from the front boundary........and assuming you haven't had permitted development rights removed in the past. The fact that there is one there now doesn't make any difference to that. If the one you are replacing falls outside those criteria in any way, and you want to similarly exceed the criteria with your new one, then you should check with your council.

 

[Dibs-h]

Conservation Area - yep. Will be contacting them to see if just consent is required or they want the full monty PP.

Thanks

Dibs