Yes we had industrialised regions, the potteries in and around Stoke on trent, steel in Sheffield, car production in Dagenham, electronics in Chelmsford and of course the mills of Lancashire with many other regions so people had local employment on their door step and no need to travel any distance. Also the work places employed large numbers of people but now many just employ a handful and so people have to commute distances to work and again we see the Victorians got so much right and understood the infrastucture.
The joys of electric car ownership!
- Thread starter flying haggis
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She seems to..
Hydrogen is a chemical reaction that can't be changed quickly?
JCB have just announced the results of their latest purpose built ICE running on hydrogen, purpose built engine giving excellent returns and durability much better as you would expect than repurposed engines designed for diesel or petrol.
The grid cannot cope with demand
In some areas true but National Grid disagree, according to their press release the charging of vehicles overnight would help even out usage and be beneficial as a way of storing renewable energy, combine these with domestic solar and battery systems that they can draw from at peak demand and it can really help, particularly in rural areas.
We need how many fast chargers, (the most expensive and least environmentally friendly way of charging) according to her other statement 80% will charge at home
Self charging hybrids as vegetarian as a hamburger, or a massive step in the right direction reducing petrol consumption dramatically and helping develop battery technology.
I could go on but there are more important issues that we do need to deal with, one is public skepticism, the tech isn't perfect yet, not all the issues are solved but we are much nearer than most people believe and this sort of thing doesn't help.
Remember the report Volvo were brave enough to issue saying that electric cars couldn't solve the problem in there own and the generation needed to be cleaned up as well, all the press latched onto was the carbon pay back ranges on current generation (based on European average, we do much better).
We need to understand that our life styles are going to change, we may have to give up driving a giant 4x4 to work every day just because we tow a caravan 400 miles a year etc.
Sorry to rant but that really hit a nerve
pe2dave
Established Member
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
I may be being naive here, but when people talk about how this or that will cost x billion dollars, I can't help but think all that money is sloshing around in the economy somewhere, jobs, wages, spending power etc. Ok, I know that when money is sloshing about, a large proportion of it trickles upwards to the folks who effectively remove it from the economy, but it's not a total loss.
I watched that video, and yes, there were one or two things that didn't sound right, such as cars taking longer to charge on AC because is has to be converted to DC first, but overall I wasn't left with the impression that she had "an agenda". Maybe I was taken in, I certainly don't feel inclined to check all the figures though.
I do remember a website somebody (here?) linked to a year or so back, explaining why EVs were a con, written by a Canadian, in which the cost of mains electricity had been misrepresented by a factor of ten, yet nobody seemed to care or notice.
I'm still not entirely sure why so many people are so anti-EV. I get it in America, where driving anything that does more than 16 mpg is viewed as suspiciously unmasculine, but in the UK I thought we were a bit better than that.
I watched that video, and yes, there were one or two things that didn't sound right, such as cars taking longer to charge on AC because is has to be converted to DC first, but overall I wasn't left with the impression that she had "an agenda". Maybe I was taken in, I certainly don't feel inclined to check all the figures though.
I do remember a website somebody (here?) linked to a year or so back, explaining why EVs were a con, written by a Canadian, in which the cost of mains electricity had been misrepresented by a factor of ten, yet nobody seemed to care or notice.
I'm still not entirely sure why so many people are so anti-EV. I get it in America, where driving anything that does more than 16 mpg is viewed as suspiciously unmasculine, but in the UK I thought we were a bit better than that.
clogs
just can't decide
just a thought........
if we have to cut back, smaller car/ smaller house / tighter waist line etc will I have to get rid of my 3HP router and get a smaller one.....
n who gonna buy it......oh, just recycle it.....thats OK then......hahaha.......
bit like the EU's mandate on smaller powered vac cleaners.....
everyone I know who's replaced one just bought a semi industrial model..........
those in charge never look at the bigger picture.....
surely my van, 23 years old with 440,000 miles *no rust* is more envoir friendly than buying a new tin can today what ever the fuel......
of course nobody's making big money from me buying new......
here, admittedly we have the weather even in winter but everybody and his brother/sister has a Honda 50cc for short trips......
perhaps thats the answer..... the newer 125 model now does 100mpg......
the cost of fuel and taxes on bigger cars is horrendus......
my Isuzu trooper was €600 per year r/tax......soon sold that off.......
if we have to cut back, smaller car/ smaller house / tighter waist line etc will I have to get rid of my 3HP router and get a smaller one.....
n who gonna buy it......oh, just recycle it.....thats OK then......hahaha.......
bit like the EU's mandate on smaller powered vac cleaners.....
everyone I know who's replaced one just bought a semi industrial model..........
those in charge never look at the bigger picture.....
surely my van, 23 years old with 440,000 miles *no rust* is more envoir friendly than buying a new tin can today what ever the fuel......
of course nobody's making big money from me buying new......
here, admittedly we have the weather even in winter but everybody and his brother/sister has a Honda 50cc for short trips......
perhaps thats the answer..... the newer 125 model now does 100mpg......
the cost of fuel and taxes on bigger cars is horrendus......
my Isuzu trooper was €600 per year r/tax......soon sold that off.......
John Brown, I don't think you have been to the US recently, even I who last visited the US twenty years ago, witnessed the down sizing of cars, compared to the 1970s when I spent a lot of time in the US. The important issue for the US & Canada is the distances they drive, both countries are vast, which means they would have to access charging stations.
I am afraid that these days what is missing is rigorous debate, particularly science. It has emerged that much that was forced upon the mass of people on the subject of lock downs and jabs was not based upon known scientific facts. This has left many distrustful of "Facts" and statistics. It is dangerous times when a nation can be co-erced into obedient behavior, that is untrue. Just because somebody questions your beliefs doesn't make them wrong.
Just in case I am labelled as a conspiricy theorist. I had the first three jabs believing in the narative that I would be protecting others, at 75 I am long past worrying about my own health. Also as an apprentice trained electronic engineer, I can look at true facts and figures and form my own judgement.
I am afraid that these days what is missing is rigorous debate, particularly science. It has emerged that much that was forced upon the mass of people on the subject of lock downs and jabs was not based upon known scientific facts. This has left many distrustful of "Facts" and statistics. It is dangerous times when a nation can be co-erced into obedient behavior, that is untrue. Just because somebody questions your beliefs doesn't make them wrong.
Just in case I am labelled as a conspiricy theorist. I had the first three jabs believing in the narative that I would be protecting others, at 75 I am long past worrying about my own health. Also as an apprentice trained electronic engineer, I can look at true facts and figures and form my own judgement.
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
I have visited the US at least once every year for the last 23 years, as I have an American wife, and she likes to get together with her brothers once a year. I missed last year, because I had a triple bypass op, and this year they're all coming here.
Of course a lot of the rules surrounding COVID were questionable, it was a somewhat novel situation, but rules and guidance changed as we all learnt more. That's how science works.
I also understand that the US and Canada are bigger in area than the UK, but I'll bet you the vast majority of car journeys are well within the range of an EV. Obviously they're not currently a viable option for everyone.
I'll take you at your word that you're not a conspiracy theorist, but if you use words like "narrative", and put "facts" in quotes, then some people might think you are.
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
As far as I recall, nobody was forced to scrap their existing vacuum cleaner and replace it with a more efficient one.
Likewise, I doubt that you will be forced to replace your 23 year old van.
Agent_zed
Established Member
I am anti certain EVs. One of the things I'm struggling with is that we are potentially just replacing one problem with another. As we've already mentioned EVs require huge amounts of raw materials and still require energy to come from somewhere. If that energy is being met via gas/coal to prop up the system then it is even worse than using diesel/petrol as it has huge losses getting down the electric lines. Coupled with extremely poor recycling rates of batteries, I think it was about 10% last time I read about it.
To my mind a sensible way forward is smaller EV vehicles and conversion of exisiting ice vehicles, along with the increase of pedal assisted vehicles. But these don't make CEOs as rich as selling new executive 2 ton EVs, and convincing people to change their buying habits is incredibly hard.
The sad fact seems to be the only way to get people to change is for the problems to affect their lives but it is only just starting to do that.
Apologies to John Brown on visiting the US! I have family in Canada and they think nothing about trips that would be impossible withot a recharge.
I am forced by planning rules to put two charging points in the house currently building and no one here has electric vehicles. Not a poblem in itself but the technology (from my research) is constantly changing, though I will have to install and maintain said charging points and bear the cost of any upgrade.
My belief is that the charge for zero is blinding many making the rules to the "on the ground reality", electric cars and their required infrastructure are in their infancy. The roll out for smart meters is a case in point. The considerable cost is passed onto the consumer and adversely affects the working poor and the retired.
I am forced by planning rules to put two charging points in the house currently building and no one here has electric vehicles. Not a poblem in itself but the technology (from my research) is constantly changing, though I will have to install and maintain said charging points and bear the cost of any upgrade.
My belief is that the charge for zero is blinding many making the rules to the "on the ground reality", electric cars and their required infrastructure are in their infancy. The roll out for smart meters is a case in point. The considerable cost is passed onto the consumer and adversely affects the working poor and the retired.
Her comment about hydrogen is absolute nonsense, you can run an IC engine on any flammable gas and hydrogen is in many ways the best. The down sides are the source of the hydrogen is often natural gas and very carbon intensive but if generated from renewables when supply exceeds demand you get a 3% return at the wheels from collected energy (figure for off shore wind) sounds bad but it's about the same for petrol if you include everything from exploration to delivery at the pump. Converting engines designed for other fuels is not as clean as it can be due to NOx levels but JCB have just released data for a purpose built engine which runs at a lower temperature and largely avoids this issue.
Her figures re the grid capacity may be true for America but our National grid have said it's not going to be a problem here, there will be areas of difficulty but we can do things to mitigate this. The biggest problem comes if you try to run all our trucks and busses in cities this way but why do we need one solution to the problem, nobody says petrol is useless because it's no good for lorries we just used diesel, hydrogen maybe the answer to this, (or it may not but we need to find out and it's looking promising). The main thing is to educate people that they do not need massive vehicles and we need smart charging which draws power at times when demand is lower, cars plugged into the grid can even sell back power to flatten out the extreme peaks.
On the subject of fast chargers. If 80% charge at home (her figures) they will not be doing it on fast chargers. In this country the majority of journeys are less than the range of current EVs which are continually improving, the situation in America may be different, if Toyota are close to viable solid state electrolytes then potentially ranges are going to leap, possibly by a factor of 4 making smaller EVs more practical, (Toyota incidentally drove their current hydrogen powered vehicle over 1000 km on a single charge, this was something of a publicity stunt the route was very carefully selected and they had very highly drained drivers most of us would not get close to that range but it shows that decent range is possible yet we know from her facts that hydrogen doesn't work.) Rather than fast charging which on mass would be a nightmare we need to use the correct tool (vehicle) for the job. Current EVs will not do everything we want and may never although personally I expect to see continuous improvement, hence the suggestion that most of us have small cars for most local journeys and hire appropriate vehicles for other uses.
Illogical? I presume you mean me not her.
A self charging hybrid will do more to reduce carbon emissions if assessed by carbon saved over battery life per kg of battery than a full EV using current battery technology (Toyota study) this is because the car charges the battery for optimal battery life to the point where they tend to out live the car, people do not, also the peterol engine can be run much more efficiently. Anecdotal evidence suggests a small proportion of owners almost never charge plug in hybrids and just lug dead batteries around. SC Hybrids can regularly achieve economy of 70 plus to the gallon and I have heard of 90 by an ex colleague who was a bit obsessed with getting the highest figure possible. The purpose of these vehicles is to save emissions now not wait until we can do the job perfectly whats illogical about that. They are also very good test beds for battery technology telling us what people do with their cars out in the real world.
Probably enough said not looking for an argument just annoyed by bad journalism and the constant misrepresentation as we saw with the Volvo report. Also people do not keep up to date with changing tech but form an opinion and stick to it. As an example the CEGB ran a study in the early 80s very well run assessing the tech of the day and concluded you could not allow more than 10% of the power on the national grid to be generated by renewables as the inconsistency of supply would make the grid unstable. Last 28 days 24% wind and 7.8% solar. Go online and hear people tell you how useless wind turbines are because of cold still nights.
I presume you meant highly trained drivers?
I should type with my glasses on
Simon Britton
New member
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I have a feeling the horse and buggy drivers and horse riders of old once scoffed at the wealthy ICE drivers for the first 30-40 years if not more and laughed at how few places there were to get go-goberry juice/petrol, how expensive it was to keep them running, etc etc. 
We have certainly come a long way in only a century and a bit.
I do like my VW Transporter for camping so am hoping diesel doesnt vanish too quickly but I also find it interesting to see the advances in battery energy density, the race to make cleaner batteries in the same manufacturing plants as the current lithium ones etc using much more common and safer materials (like sodium Ion aka salt), I guess it is too easy to dismiss new technology on its current state of play, especially if you only follow one side of the story but when you consider the amount of experts and boffins who already fully aware of the things thats aren't currently perfect or even downright polluting with current EVs but are racing to make it all better it is encouraging to know the future won't be so polluted. Maybe one day as the battery density improves it will allow for retrofit motors and conversions. Interesting times.
Progress takes time but we have the ICE wins and failures to build from. Imagine how much further along we would be too if we had not made the entire planet a little less clever with 40 years of leaded fuel, I bet we would have jet packs and flying cars by now if it were not for the lead. there may even be less hate and war on the planet, hell, twitter might even be a nice place to debate things ;-)
I also fear EVs might be held back or undermined by hydrogen regardless of it's efficiency or superiority but simply because the wealthy Oil elite and politicos already know how to tax a commodity that you cant readily make at home and do not like that you can easily plug in to that giant fusion reactor in the sky, store it and use it without paying them. (They will find a way though, it's what they do best)
Think of the clever things the amazing makers on here will be doing with the spent battery packs and used solar panels, free power sun tracking sheds for the win. I hope the future is bright. once the scrapheaps are full small time power will be free of charge for the brave maker, mark my tipsy words
end rant LOL
We have certainly come a long way in only a century and a bit.I do like my VW Transporter for camping so am hoping diesel doesnt vanish too quickly but I also find it interesting to see the advances in battery energy density, the race to make cleaner batteries in the same manufacturing plants as the current lithium ones etc using much more common and safer materials (like sodium Ion aka salt), I guess it is too easy to dismiss new technology on its current state of play, especially if you only follow one side of the story but when you consider the amount of experts and boffins who already fully aware of the things thats aren't currently perfect or even downright polluting with current EVs but are racing to make it all better it is encouraging to know the future won't be so polluted. Maybe one day as the battery density improves it will allow for retrofit motors and conversions. Interesting times.
Progress takes time but we have the ICE wins and failures to build from. Imagine how much further along we would be too if we had not made the entire planet a little less clever with 40 years of leaded fuel, I bet we would have jet packs and flying cars by now if it were not for the lead. there may even be less hate and war on the planet, hell, twitter might even be a nice place to debate things ;-)
I also fear EVs might be held back or undermined by hydrogen regardless of it's efficiency or superiority but simply because the wealthy Oil elite and politicos already know how to tax a commodity that you cant readily make at home and do not like that you can easily plug in to that giant fusion reactor in the sky, store it and use it without paying them. (They will find a way though, it's what they do best)
Think of the clever things the amazing makers on here will be doing with the spent battery packs and used solar panels, free power sun tracking sheds for the win. I hope the future is bright. once the scrapheaps are full small time power will be free of charge for the brave maker, mark my tipsy words
end rant LOL
Terry - Somerset
Established Member
I know it's a little tedious but lets look at some facts:
That hydrogen represents a viable alternative for most applications (HGV and site equipment aside) to battery EV is (IMHO) a complete non-starter.
- average annual mileage in the US is 13500 (7400 in the UK). More, yes, but much may be due to lower housing density in the US - meaning further to drive to local schools, shops, entertainment etc. It is evidently NOT the consequence of extensive inter-state travel.
- generating hydrogen requires electricity. Losses in electrolysis is ~20%. Compressing to 5000PSI absorbs energy. Converting hydrogen to electricity in a fuel cell is ~60% efficient. In summary - using electricity to make hydrogen to run a fuel cell to produce electricity is 30-40% as efficient as using the electricity to charge a battery.
- there is huge spare capacity overnight. Today demand between 24.00 and 6.00 was ~20GW. Between 9.00 and 20.00 average demand was ~34GW.
That hydrogen represents a viable alternative for most applications (HGV and site equipment aside) to battery EV is (IMHO) a complete non-starter.
I guess it depends on your definition of 'most'. Seems to me that all continuous- or near-continuous-duty ICE applications are incompatible with current batteries. It's hard (in the 30sec I alloted to the task!) to figure out how much of the UK's GHG emissions are due to continuous-duty ICE applications, but without HGVs, trains, ships and plant machinery, we'd grind to a halt, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to explore ways to make them more environmentally friendly. Cars are about 10-12% I think, so as much as EV tech gets us all fired up, even banning all cars might not save us. (disclaimer - I am a certified petrol head, have always done way more driving than I need to, and mostly in vehicles that are not v efficient. Current daily driver is a Tesla - I guess history will show whether that's a positive change!)
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
I thought trains were mostly electric these days.
As for ships, there has been talk of building ships propelled by the wind, in what some may see as a backward step. As it happens, Brunel's SS Great Britain was modified during its working life to be driven by sail. The propeller could be raised out of the sea to reduce the drag.
Yeah I wondered about trains! Globally they are mostly diesel. A quick search suggests UK rail miles are 30% pure diesel and 30% pure electric - unclear what the others are. It would be great to see more sailing vessels (I have my own so I'm biased). The main point remains though that there is a LOT of ICE-powered stuff that we rely on, and which isn't really addressed by today's battery tech, however much we might love/hate it. I'm reminded of a conversation I had with an expert in electricity generation, who commented that for energy security there is no one solution - 'we need all of it'. I suspect the same is true of decarbonisation. The depressing thing is how little rational discussion I see online - it's mostly just 'EVs are evil' vs 'ICE is evil' plus a lot of deep-state conspiracy stuff.
There are a number of solutions to this debate that require looking back. I can never understand why car companies do not embrace lightness in the manufacture of their cars as we once did, While electric cars in principal are a good idea I cannot get on board with carrying all that weight of battery around, as mentioned earlier in this thread, driving a 2 tonne car to transport a 90kg human doesn't compute. Even performance vehicles and off roaders would benefit from a reduction in weight. Caught the below video on YouTube the other day. Looking at the car its hard to believe this may represent the future of motoring. 360kg in weight, seating for 2, 200l of luggage space and £35,000, you might need to invest in a new rain coat though.
I’m currently in China. I’m in the center of Chengdu and the vast majority of cars here are electric. Many models exclusive to China. Because of covid I haven't been here for three years and the difference since then is staggering. The difference in noise and air quality is massive. I can categorically say the same transition in U.K. cities would have a very beneficial impact.
