Tennis elbows

[MikeSav]

I wondered what experiences people have had with this condition when it comes to working wood.
I've worked a lot of different jobs in my life, nearly all physical. I laboured for different trades when I was a youngster: plasterers, screeders, brickies, and I scaffolded for about 15 years.
Now I'm 43, and have tennis elbows. I think it was brought on when I went back to scaffolding a couple of years ago after having not done it for several years and expecting to be as fast as I was in my 20's. Then I worked making rustic furniture for a local company from scaffold boards last year and it got worse.
It's got better in recent months after lots of rest, but this morning I can feel it's flared up again - must be from yesterday when I was lifting crates of potatoes in a repetitive manner.
I thought it had gone!
I have a couple of questions:
Does it ever really go?
What are peoples experiences of it with handtool woodworking?
I would like to spend the rest of my life working wood and have to start learning to mill wood to flat and square by hand plane in September.

 

[bp122]

I'm sorry to hear about this, Mike.

The first time I heard about this was a couple of decades ago when India's best cricket batsman had it. I remember everyone taking about it. I also remember he had to go through multiple surgeries and lots of physio, but he was able to play for ten more years.

Yes, it is a different life and all sponsored and paid for treatments, but my point is there may be something the NHS can do or recommend. I'd say it is worth a chat with them if there is a possibility of you being able to do what you like albeit with extra effort.

Wish you all the best and a speedy recovery.
Take care
Bharath

 

[MikeSav]

I'm sorry to hear about this, Mike.

The first time I heard about this was a couple of decades ago when India's best cricket batsman had it. I remember everyone taking about it. I also remember he had to go through multiple surgeries and lots of physio, but he was able to play for ten more years.

Yes, it is a different life and all sponsored and paid for treatments, but my point is there may be something the NHS can do or recommend. I'd say it is worth a chat with them if there is a possibility of you being able to do what you like albeit with extra effort.

Wish you all the best and a speedy recovery.
Take care
Bharath

Thanks Bharath, what a kind message.
My doctor told me to stop doing the things that caused it and get lots of rest, so I did, and it got better. My elderly neighbour said that she had it and the cortisol injections cleared it up, but she could hardly lift a cup of tea and mine is more the inconvenience of the pain as opposed to not being able to use my arms anymore.

 

[sawtooth-9]

This is really a medical question.
But
Don't do things that cause "flare ups "
Joints need lubrication - so fish oils in your diet are a real plus.
Cartilage is the "bearing" surface - some supplements of shark cartilage may be a help.
Basically, if the joint has a good bearing surface and adequate lubrication, it should work.
It's only my view, but I would AVOID any cortisone base treatments - they may provide relief, but are only going to reduce the inflame symptoms
My wife, as a naturopath , has dealt with this so many times - but please do some serious homework before using cortisone.

 

[bp122]

Thanks Bharath, what a kind message.
My doctor told me to stop doing the things that caused it and get lots of rest, so I did, and it got better. My elderly neighbour said that she had it and the cortisol injections cleared it up, but she could hardly lift a cup of tea and mine is more the inconvenience of the pain as opposed to not being able to use my arms anymore.

Ah, fair enough. Sorry, I couldn't be of more help.

 

[MikeSav]

This is really a medical question.
But
Don't do things that cause "flare ups "
Joints need lubrication - so fish oils in your diet are a real plus.
Cartilage is the "bearing" surface - some supplements of shark cartilage may be a help.
Basically, if the joint has a good bearing surface and adequate lubrication, it should work.
It's only my view, but I would AVOID any cortisone base treatments - they may provide relief, but are only going to reduce the inflame symptoms
My wife, as a naturopath , has dealt with this so many times - but please do some serious homework before using cortisone.

My doctor said she didn't want to give me the injections as they degrade the cartilage and should only be used as a last resort.
Doesn't sound good!
Yes, I will avoid.
Also, avoiding certain movements really seems to help.

 

[sawtooth-9]

My doctor said she didn't want to give me the injections as they degrade the cartilage and should only be used as a last resort.
Doesn't sound good!
Yes, I will avoid.
Also, avoiding certain movements really seems to help.

Smart advise from your doctor.
But as part of a "recovery" plan PLENTY of W3 oils ( the right fish, or if necessary you can get W3 oils "in a bottle") and the shark cartilage -
I guess it's a simple principle - stop ( or reduce ) the cause of the damage, then add the "ingredients" that repair the damage, then provide the ingredients that will prevent the damage from repeating.
Be patient, and good luck.

 

[sawtooth-9]

My doctor said she didn't want to give me the injections as they degrade the cartilage and should only be used as a last resort.
Doesn't sound good!
Yes, I will avoid.
Also, avoiding certain movements really seems to help.

It's really important not to let an issue like this prevent you from doing what you want to do.
Sometimes we need to adjust what and how we do it - but you will overcome this problem with thought and time.
When I had to have a pacemaker, I could no longer weld - but I have found other ways, even on some occasions getting welding jobs done ! It annoys me, because I like to do things myself.
Because of my age ( somewhere between a relic and a fossil ) I need to use lifting gear - never needed it before - but I still get the job done
I am sure you will do the same.
Any time you want to chat - you are most welcome

 

[MikeSav]

It's really important not to let an issue like this prevent you from doing what you want to do.
Sometimes we need to adjust what and how we do it - but you will overcome this problem with thought and time.
When I had to have a pacemaker, I could no longer weld - but I have found other ways, even on some occasions getting welding jobs done ! It annoys me, because I like to do things myself.
Because of my age ( somewhere between a relic and a fossil ) I need to use lifting gear - never needed it before - but I still get the job done
I am sure you will do the same.
Any time you want to chat - you are most welcome

Thanks Sawtooth, that's encouraging!

Where there's a will, there's a way.

Perhaps I can still do what I want to do, just at a different speed and with more care.

I've noticed that my movements have already started adjusting for damage limitation and to compensate, without me consciously thinking about it - amazing how adaptable we can be.

Thanks again for your supportive comments! I'd wish you a great day, but I'm guessing it's late evening there

 

[imageel]

Some good advice Mike, I don't have tennis elbow but have got mild arthritis in my hands and elbows and agree with others that you need to avoid activities that cause it to flare up but also to be aware that weather will affect your joints and e.g. working in cold and damp conditions will exacerbate any joint issues you may have.
I'd definitely avoid any steroidal treatments too if you can - they provide short term relief by reducing the bodies natural inflammatory response so the joint feels better because swelling etc is reduced, however this has no benefit AFAIK to the underlying tissue damage. They also have nasty side effects such as making connective tissue brittle.
So I guess the moral here is to listen to your body and find alternate ways to do stuff if your joints are complaining, that way you will be able to continue to enjoy woodworking for many years to come, albeit you may be a little slower!

 

[John Brown]

I would talk to a doctor. A proper one, not a homeopath or a naturopath or an osteopath but a proper, science based doctor. The last time I checked there was no credible evidence of fish oil or glucosamine or shark cartilage having any effect, apart from making your wallet lighter, but who knows, that may have changed.
I used to get golfer's elbow when I played tennis a lot(a testament to my bad playing style), which is similar, and it generally cleared up by itself after a while. Some of those I played with swore by cortisol injections, others thought they were the worst thing since sliced bread.

 

[MikeSav]

Some good advice Mike, I don't have tennis elbow but have got mild arthritis in my hands and elbows and agree with others that you need to avoid activities that cause it to flare up but also to be aware that weather will affect your joints and e.g. working in cold and damp conditions will exacerbate any joint issues you may have.
I'd definitely avoid any steroidal treatments too if you can - they provide short term relief by reducing the bodies natural inflammatory response so the joint feels better because swelling etc is reduced, however this has no benefit AFAIK to the underlying tissue damage. They also have nasty side effects such as making connective tissue brittle.
So I guess the moral here is to listen to your body and find alternate ways to do stuff if your joints are complaining, that way you will be able to continue to enjoy woodworking for many years to come, albeit you may be a little slower!

Thanks for your reply imageel, I was working in a cold place yesterday in just a t-shrt and I hadn't thought of that! Next time I'll wear the elbow braces and a jumper.

 

[Kayen]

I would talk to a doctor. A proper one, not a homeopath or a naturopath or an osteopath but a proper, science based doctor. The last time I checked there was no credible evidence of fish oil or glucosamine or shark cartilage having any effect, apart from making your wallet lighter, but who knows, that may have changed.
I used to get golfer's elbow when I played tennis a lot(a testament to my bad playing style), which is similar, and it generally cleared up by itself after a while. Some of those I played with swore by cortisol injections, others thought they were the worst thing since sliced bread.

A lot of the time these science-based doctors are doing a job they really don't want to do, often they are doctors because their parents pushed them into it, wanting the status for themselves and their offspring.

Naturopaths (and the like) are often doing a job they love and have a deep interest in, so I wouldn't discount them off-hand. In fact, a naturopath cured me of something in 30 days that the doctors couldn't in 2 years.

The last time I saw my science-based doctor (GP) he prescribed me Omeprazole for heartburn, even though I had told him I hadn't eaten a thing for the previous five days. Two days later I staggered into A&E, three days later I was having surgery for stage three bowel cancer, so personally, I would suggest putting your trust in the person, rather than their title.

 

[Doug71]

I get tennis elbow every couple of years, just actually getting over it at the moment. I do play tennis, have done for years but have a good style so pretty sure this isn't the problem( but obviously doesn't help). When playing tennis I only feel it on my first serve, apparently I pronate on my first serve (I had to Google it) which is good for tennis but not for tennis elbow

Mine is generally brought on through work although I think this time it was because I went climbing with the kids a few weeks ago (competitive dad).

I used to get physio on it but soon realised you can save the money and do the massages and stretches yourself, you need to get your thumb stuck in there and break up the scar tissue. You will find loads of videos online.

One preventative measure that is often recommended is to have thicker grips on things, you can build up the grip on tools etc to give them a bit more girth, you will probably feel it hurt when you grip something tightly. I remember one episode when I had it really bad I couldn't even pick up a pint glass

I would try and avoid the injections, I had them on a shoulder problem, worked for about 6 weeks then just seemed to wear off and the pain came back.

When my tennis elbow flares up I just basically stretch it, massage it, ice it and try to take things a bit easier and it sorts itself out in a few weeks.

I do use the strap type supports sometimes when playing tennis but find myself just pulling it tighter and tighter as the match goes on which can't be good. I did borrow a really good support off a friend which had a strap round your wrist and one just below the elbow and they were joined together with a kind of splint. Worked really well, felt like Iron Man when wearing it but really weak when I took it off.

 

[John Brown]

A lot of the time these science-based doctors are doing a job they really don't want to do, often they are doctors because their parents pushed them into it, wanting the status for themselves and their offspring.

Naturopaths (and the like) are often doing a job they love and have a deep interest in, so I wouldn't discount them off-hand. In fact, a naturopath cured me of something in 30 days that the doctors couldn't in 2 years.

The last time I saw my science-based doctor (GP) he prescribed me Omeprazole for heartburn, even though I had told him I hadn't eaten a thing for the previous five days. Two days later I staggered into A&E, three days later I was having surgery for stage three bowel cancer, so personally, I would suggest putting your trust in the person, rather than their title.

A lot, if not the majority, of mainstream medicines came originally from natural sources. If it works, it will be adopted by the science based medical fraternity.
I am sorry to hear you had stage three bowel cancer, but I'm prepared to bet that the surgery was performed by qualified conventional doctors.

 

[Essex Barn Workshop]

I got it in my left elbow, and then a year later (almost certainly from over compensating for the left) got it in my right one!
It has now gone, apart from a very occasional small twinge. I self-medicated by watching you tube videos to find what exercises to do, and also wearing a fairly tight elbow strap which had an extra pad in it to press against the affected area. Like this one here:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tennis-Elbow-Support-Compression-2-Count/dp/B01LM1G12QTook about 16-18 months before I realised i was clear of it.
Good luck

 

[MikeSav]

Thanks Doug71 and Essex barn workshop, that's what I was hoping for, comments from people with experience of this problem. Both your experiences sound similar to mine, and it's good to hear that it's not the beginning of the end!

 

[Kayen]

A lot, if not the majority, of mainstream medicines came originally from natural sources. If it works, it will be adopted by the science based medical fraternity.
I am sorry to hear you had stage three bowel cancer, but I'm prepared to bet that the surgery was performed by qualified conventional doctors.

Of course it was, and the surgeon and all of his team were absolutely brilliant - but I've also encountered an arrogant, pretty useless surgeon who thankfully only had to repair a damaged tendon in my finger. I didn't say don't use them, I said I wouldn't totally discount the natural practitioners and wholly trust the science-based ones, as there's good, bad, and value in both fields.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

You need to determine whether you have "tennis elbow" (outer side of fore arm) or "golfer's elbow" (inner side of elbow). Tennis elbow pain is from exertion, and golfer's elbow from poor technique. The latter requires a change of grip or swing (technique).

Tennis elbow involves a pronation of the tendon, and the tendon needs to be prevented from moving. There are bands to wear for this, but some are poorly designed. The one that is effective has a "bubble" which presses on the tendon and locks it down.

Now you need to consult a physiotherapist for appropriate exercises to strengthen ancillary muscles.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[MikeSav]

You need to determine whether you have "tennis elbow" (outer side of fore arm) or "golfer's elbow" (inner side of elbow). Tennis elbow pain is from exertion, and golfer's elbow from poor technique. The latter requires a change of grip or swing (technique).

Tennis elbow involves a pronation of the tendon, and the tendon needs to be prevented from moving. There are bands to wear for this, but some are poorly designed. The one that is effective has a "bubble" which presses on the tendon and locks it down.

Now you need to consult a physiotherapist for appropriate exercises to strengthen ancillary muscles.

Regards from Perth

Derek

It's definitely 'tennis' elbow, or lateral epicondylitis I think they call it - although I've never been one for tennis. And golf gave me a different problem, around the thumb area!
I've got those bubble strap things (on the outer side of my elbow) but found I had to have it so tight that it cut off blood supply to my inner arm. Perhaps I was wearing it wrong!