Sash bar dimensions for historical windows

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Nurse catalogue.. There’s the lambs tongue and ovolo with scribing planes. Not obviously one for sale to match the quirk ogee, but it says somewhere else that they’ll make any plane you want in 24 hrs if they have a mother plane and 48 if they don’t.
IMG_0794.jpeg
 
Nurse catalogue.. There’s the lambs tongue and ovolo with scribing planes. Not obviously one for sale to match the quirk ogee, but it says somewhere else that they’ll make any plane you want in 24 hrs if they have a mother plane and 48 if they don’t.
View attachment 165846
Right!
So next question is; were these scribing planes common? which would mean they'd crop up regularly today, as do many of the others.
I'd guess not.
Looking at Mathieson and Nurse catalogues etc I also guess that these designs were not only there to supply an existing need but also to create a new need, with an increased range of new designs and techniques - probably leading to the term "London pattern".
A scribed shoulder and "franked" joint as per my example above would be done not because it was a good joint in itself, but because it was possible to do if you bought the planes. You could save yourself a bit of time if you had a lot to do, and also do fancy profiles. You'd also need a jig for the planed scribe, like the sticking board, as there would not be enough straight face on the tenon to run a plane against.
I wish I'd kept a few more samples in my scrap box - I've always thought that anatomical examination of dead joinery/furniture should be top of the list in a learning situation! With hindsight I may have overlooked franked joints and just binned them as machine made and 2nd rate.
 
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Right!
So next question is; were these scribing planes common? which would mean they'd crop up regularly today, as do many of the others.
I'd guess not.
Looking at Mathieson and Nurse catalogues etc I also guess that these designs were not only there to supply an existing need but also to create a new need, with an increased range of new designs and techniques - probably leading to the term "London pattern".
A scribed shoulder and "franked" joint as per my example above would be done not because it was a good joint in itself, but because it was possible to do if you bought the planes. You could save yourself a bit of time if you had a lot to do, and also do fancy profiles. You'd also need a jig for the planed scribe, like the sticking board, as there would not be enough straight face on the tenon to run a plane against.
I wish I'd kept a few more samples in my scrap box - I've always thought that anatomical examination of dead joinery/furniture should be top of the list in a learning situation! With hindsight I may have overlooked franked joints and just binned them as machine made and 2nd rate.
It’s true that there don’t seem to be so many around today. I have 2, one that I bought knowing what it was and another that I found in a job lot I purchased years ago. I’d guess that for standard ovolos it was traditionally done with a gouge and a couple of saw cuts.

It could be that it was an innovation that didn’t catch on easily. Back in the day it seems that methods were stuck to, driven probably by the apprenticeship system. The transitional plane period shows how hard it was to move the industry from wooden to metal planes.

But all of the makers do offer them. But they also offer all kinds of stuff that isn’t obviously around today - for example I found this very cool floor plane….

IMG_0796.jpeg


On the subject of ”first class work”…. In Hasluck once I came across dovetailed mitres on skirting boards. I asked my builder who was renovating my house if his work was first class, and if so would he be dovetailing my skirting boards like the book says. Response started with F, ended in off.

IMG_0795.jpeg
 
It’s true that there don’t seem to be so many around today. I have 2, one that I bought knowing what it was and another that I found in a job lot I purchased years ago. I’d guess that for standard ovolos it was traditionally done with a gouge and a couple of saw cuts.

It could be that it was an innovation that didn’t catch on easily. Back in the day it seems that methods were stuck to, driven probably by the apprenticeship system. The transitional plane period shows how hard it was to move the industry from wooden to metal planes.

But all of the makers do offer them. But they also offer all kinds of stuff that isn’t obviously around today - for example I found this very cool floor plane….

View attachment 165850

On the subject of ”first class work”…. In Hasluck once I came across dovetailed mitres on skirting boards. I asked my builder who was renovating my house if his work was first class, and if so would he be dovetailing my skirting boards like the book says. Response started with F, ended in off.

View attachment 165851
🤣 I bought a similar but simpler plane which apparently was for cleaning up wooden packing cases, taking old labels and scribbles off.
 
Just had a look in Salaman. Under "Plane, Sash Scribing or Coping"; "According to the late Mr A Collier, the use of planes for scribing was discontinued after about 1890. At present only one actual example is known.......Science Museum....etc"
There's also a section on "Window Making" which includes all the catalogue tools and a drawing of "probable" use of scribing plane, which looks unlikely to me.
Obviously these are in the book as "sash window making tools", but that doesn't mean they were all made with them and I get the impression they were just late 19C tool developments.
 
I guess they all rework earlier writings, they'd have to, from the first - Nicholson being a rewrite of Moxon, with amendments, and so on.
Greenhalgh/Corkhill/Lowsley has sections written by about 10 different authors including familiar names like Charles Hayward. Greenhalgh is just "editor".
"Notes on Building Construction" 1899 has an intro describing additions and amendments and a long list of sources. It's "arranged to meet the syllabus of the Science& Art Department of the Committee of Council on Education South Kensington"
W B McKay comments on changes and new developments, from edition to edition. He also talks at length about Building Science syllabuses and was teacher and examiner.
They are all for training for the trade and excellent, nothing like the pop modern books at all.
When I was attending technical college back in the late 1950s/ 1960s, we were always advised to purchase books by W. B. McKay, our tutors considered them to be some of the best authored textbooks available at the time. In fact, I actually received one as a prize. I have attached the original book and my certificate (with some personal details removed for security reasons).

I am still running a business at the grand old age of 82 years old and if anybody would be interested in seeing examples of our work, you can take a look at our website; Atkinsons Joiners. I hope this of some interest to some of you.

Stan
 

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Well done!
We were expected to know it too, as architectural students in the late 60s.
I've got the same 3 vols in one, without the dust cover, and also bought them separately incase they were different. Brilliant books but as with the others the joinery design details were of their time and the preceding several decades i.e. interwar. Later editions edited.
Not sure what came after McKay in the way of serious building science books, maybe he was last of the line.
 
Just had a look in Salaman. Under "Plane, Sash Scribing or Coping"; "According to the late Mr A Collier, the use of planes for scribing was discontinued after about 1890. At present only one actual example is known.......Science Museum....etc"
........
Small world. The same A Collier I presume? Our History - Monument Tools
He was before the age of Ebay, car boot etc so no doubt a few more scribing planes have turned up in the meantime
 
I think I worked out why the franked tenon joint is popular for sash construction: it’s easier and less work than a standard haunched tenon. The reason being you already have the “square“ of the moulding on the mortise part. This gives a pokey-up bit that may as well be used as a haunch, else you’d have to cut it all away and then some, to accommodate the haunch. Hopefully the diagram below illustrates.

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When I was attending technical college back in the late 1950s/ 1960s, we were always advised to purchase books by W. B. McKay, our tutors considered them to be some of the best authored textbooks available at the time. In fact, I actually received one as a prize. I have attached the original book and my certificate (with some personal details removed for security reasons).

I am still running a business at the grand old age of 82 years old and if anybody would be interested in seeing examples of our work, you can take a look at our website; Atkinsons Joiners. I hope this of some interest to some of you.

Stan
That's a nice prize. I received a bursary from the City and Guilds of London Institute during my recent carving MA.
 
I think I worked out why the franked tenon joint is popular for sash construction: it’s easier and less work than a standard haunched tenon. The reason being you already have the “square“ of the moulding on the mortise part. This gives a pokey-up bit that may as well be used as a haunch, else you’d have to cut it all away and then some, to accommodate the haunch. Hopefully the diagram below illustrates.

View attachment 165951
But while you are doing the mortice in the stile itself it's very easy to go that bit further and chop out the haunch, rather than chopping it out of the rail in another operation. Either a depth stop on your mortice machine or a mark on your chisel does it.
And it's much easier to form a haunch on the rail tenon - just two fast saw cuts.
So it makes no sense to me at all.
er - OTOH if you look at my photos above the tenon is about 3/32" narrower than the flat, with one side sawn, and the other removed by the scribing plane (or spindle), so it's part way to a haunch socket already and a couple of chisel strokes would take it out. In fact you can see traces of two chisel strikes on edge of the tenon. Hmm 🤔 Maybe that's deliberate rather than a bodge of some sort, but the thin wall left on one side of the mortice looks odd and would have to be very precise to fit the saw kerf alongside the tenon.
Maybe we are looking at very specific techniques for making use of these very specific tools, a "system" as distinct from the other trad approaches.
 
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I always presumed the franked tenon joint was just to leave a bit more strength in the stiles. On delicate stiles if you cut out a haunch and groove out for the cord there isn't much meat left in the middle.

I've always used franked tenons in that situation as it's the way I was taught, all the old ones I've seen are also made like that, maybe it's a regional thing.
 
Well, it’s back to work on my (first ever) window today. I may try both haunched and franked to see which I prefer. Structurally speaking they are the same.

I have a few clarifications (no doubt to raise more controversy!)

See below a picture of a casement sash. Have I got the following right?

The stiles have the mortises, the rail has the tenons.
All of the mortises for rails and horizontal bars are full depth and are wedged
The horizontal bars are full length and mortised for the vertical bars
The vertical bars are cut and tenoned into the horizontal bars
The mortise in the sash for the vertical bars is not a full through mortise and isn’t wedged.

IMG_0798.jpeg
 
I always presumed the franked tenon joint was just to leave a bit more strength in the stiles. On delicate stiles if you cut out a haunch and groove out for the cord there isn't much meat left in the middle.
But there is enough left. Even at the bottom sash meeting rail where there is just a slender bridle joint (a tenon with the horn trimmed back) - sometimes dovetailed in heavier windows.
I've always used franked tenons in that situation as it's the way I was taught, all the old ones I've seen are also made like that, maybe it's a regional thing.
I'm beginning to think it's just a throwback to the late 19C heyday of the sophisticated special sash planes from Mathieson, Nurse etc. which had franking as a slightly speedier hand process. Quite a brief phase between the earlier practices and the advent of the spindle moulder, but at a time when sash windows were most prolific.*
I've been looking at my scrap box sample (see earlier post) and it's much more interesting than I thought! I'll post later.

*PS 19C saw massive spate of building improvements most typically with shop fronts and commercial buildings, pubs etc. You see it all over the place - a trim Georgian or Victorian facade has been stuck on the front of a much older building, where you might find round the back filled-in mullioned windows and low doorways of a three story building, now converted to two, with taller sashes and higher ceilings. Lots of variations.
You can see it all over Derbyshire where the building round the back is older than the facade. I presume it went on all over the country - in fact I've seen a black house in the Hebrides which had little sash windows inserted!
In other words a big boom in sash windows, aided by new tools and improvements in production and falling price of glass.
 
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Well, it’s back to work on my (first ever) window today. I may try both haunched and franked to see which I prefer. Structurally speaking they are the same.

I have a few clarifications (no doubt to raise more controversy!)

See below a picture of a casement sash. Have I got the following right?

The stiles have the mortises, the rail has the tenons.
All of the mortises for rails and horizontal bars are full depth and are wedged
The horizontal bars are full length and mortised for the vertical bars
The vertical bars are cut and tenoned into the horizontal bars
The mortise in the sash for the vertical bars is not a full through mortise and isn’t wedged.

View attachment 166022
Side hung casement the bars go through horizontally and add strength where there is most strain.
Top hung sash the bars go though vertically for the same reason.
I'd stick to normal haunched tenons, narrower than those shown on the drawing. Say about half the width of the rail.
 
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Well, it’s back to work on my (first ever) window today. I may try both haunched and franked to see which I prefer. Structurally speaking they are the same.

I have a few clarifications (no doubt to raise more controversy!)

See below a picture of a casement sash. Have I got the following right?

The stiles have the mortises, the rail has the tenons.
All of the mortises for rails and horizontal bars are full depth and are wedged
The horizontal bars are full length and mortised for the vertical bars
The vertical bars are cut and tenoned into the horizontal bars
The mortise in the sash for the vertical bars is not a full through mortise and isn’t wedged.

View attachment 166022
Hi Steve. That all looks fine to me. I tend not to run my top and bottom vertical bar through. I have seen so many bottom rails rotted out where the water has wicked up the end grain of the bottom mortise if it has been taken right through. Having said that, it is often down to poor maintenance, and not leaving enough gap under the bottom rail, or not adding a capillary groove. "Old Arthur" who I was apprenticed to, taught me to add what he called "shoulder creep" to the vertical bars. This just entailed cutting outside the line on the tenons to create a bit of pressure on the vertical bars to keep them nice and tight. Not so much if it's a hardwood job, but redwood softwood will crush in nicely if it's a wee bit tight I would recommend sticking to frankings if it was my job. From my experience, it is a common method used in the making of sash, using hand methods, and has been around for a few hundred years, and as I have already pointed out, it gives a better bearing surface for the wedge to sit against, and doesn't weaken the stile so much. It was also common practice in the workshop where I served my apprenticeship, and how I was shown at college, and has been present in every old sash I have ever took apart. I tend to take the opinion that by the end of the 19th century, when hand tool methods started to disappear, 300 odd years of joinery experience had got it all worked out.
 
.
Not sure what came after McKay in the way of serious building science books, maybe he was last of the line.
R Bayliss, Carpentry & Joinery volumes 1 - 4 published 1961 by Huchinson. They are very comprehensive but lack the ' glamour' of the older books
 
Hi Steve. That all looks fine to me. I tend not to run my top and bottom vertical bar through. I have seen so many bottom rails rotted out where the water has wicked up the end grain of the bottom mortise if it has been taken right through. Having said that, it is often down to poor maintenance, and not leaving enough gap under the bottom rail, or not adding a capillary groove. "Old Arthur" who I was apprenticed to, taught me to add what he called "shoulder creep" to the vertical bars. This just entailed cutting outside the line on the tenons to create a bit of pressure on the vertical bars to keep them nice and tight. Not so much if it's a hardwood job, but redwood softwood will crush in nicely if it's a wee bit tight I would recommend sticking to frankings if it was my job. From my experience, it is a common method used in the making of sash, using hand methods, and has been around for a few hundred years, and as I have already pointed out, it gives a better bearing surface for the wedge to sit against, and doesn't weaken the stile so much. It was also common practice in the workshop where I served my apprenticeship, and how I was shown at college, and has been present in every old sash I have ever took apart. I tend to take the opinion that by the end of the 19th century, when hand tool methods started to disappear, 300 odd years of joinery experience had got it all worked out.

Hi mp, thanks for the advice. I must be doing something wrong then. I just tried to cut my very first franked joint. I was working on the stile, I did the mortise. It seemed the next thing to do was to create the glazing rebate with the sash filister and the moulding. Then all I need to do is to mitre the moulding at the appropriate place and pare off the ovolo next to the franking bit.

When I did this I’m sure I wasn’t careful enough, but the franking bit just popped off. It would, given the grain at that point it is extremely weak.

I must have got this wrong somehow.

IMG_4300.jpeg
 
Hi mp, thanks for the advice. I must be doing something wrong then. I just tried to cut my very first franked joint. I was working on the stile, I did the mortise. It seemed the next thing to do was to create the glazing rebate with the sash filister and the moulding. Then all I need to do is to mitre the moulding at the appropriate place and pare off the ovolo next to the franking bit.

When I did this I’m sure I wasn’t careful enough, but the franking bit just popped off. It would, given the grain at that point it is extremely weak.

I must have got this wrong somehow.

View attachment 166036
You've discovered why franking isn't a particularly good joint. It amounts to being a stub tenon but with the grain in the wrong direction.
Also you've removed the moulding as for an "unfranked" joint. Compare with my photo - the moulding goes through and acts as a shoulder for the cross grain "tenon"
Your deepish glazing rebate doesn't help either!

Screenshot 2023-09-09 at 11.17.30.png
 
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You've discovered why franking isn't a particularly good joint. It amounts to being a stub tenon but with the grain in the wrong direction.
I have, but it seems incredulous that all the books show it and clearly many around here were taught it and use it. So I can’t help thinking I must be doing something wrong, but it’s very difficult to see what that might be.

It’s so weak that even if I hadn’t popped that bit off by mistake with the chisel, I could push it off with my thumb, in softwood.

I’m now going to turn that little practice joint into a regular haunched tenon.
 
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