Poor english
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Smudger
Established Member
Why mock? It's the correct word.
I get pretty peed off by this sort of thing. Or should I dumb down to suit you?
I get pretty peed off by this sort of thing. Or should I dumb down to suit you?
davegw
Established Member
My 2 pence worth
IN MY OPINION:
Written English and Spoken English are two very difficult animals.
Written English, has some strict grammatical rules, many of which I don't know because I am a victim of a period in education that decided grammar wasn't that important, not to say that teachers didn't try to teach it, they did, but we knew it didn't matter (wouldn't affect exam marks). Has my lack of grammatical knowledge affected my employment prospects - no - but possibly because I took it upon myself as I got older to read more and understand what grammar is. Still not particularly great.
Spoken English: Let me put my cards on the table. I am from East London. I have a regional accent that has been derided not only by outsiders but by my own peers and family (who speak the same way I do) as "common". When I started working in the City of London I was 'advised' to change the way I speak to fit in. I stopped doing this the moment I heard a Geordie manager, talking to a colleague from Manchester about how bad a Cockneys pronunciation was. I don't understand, and never will, why the way I speak (I drop T's and H's for example) is any worse that someone who say's something like "going t' shops" (and therefore dropped an o, t, h and an e!)
English evolves constantly, like all languages. American English and Spellings are actually old english as a concerted effort was made many years ago in America to protect the language for example, fall, sidewalk, and vacation are all originally English words that have fallen from use. I believe a similar difference exists between French and Canadian French, as more effort is made in Canada to protect the Language.
No one should be vilified for not understanding the rules of English, as has been pointed out by others, the Language borrows from other languages and brings different (sometimes contradictory) rules with it. but also when a mistake is made, and pointed out gracefully, the correction should be accepted gracefully.
Finally, for anyone who thinks that English stays still can I suggest the following reading list:
The Original King James Bible
Pilgrims Progress
Romeo and Juliet
Jude the Obscure
Jane Eyre
David Copperfield
The Woman in White
anything by P G Woodhouse
The Wasp Factory
(Whilst I did spellcheck this message please accept any errors as my own)
IN MY OPINION:
Written English and Spoken English are two very difficult animals.
Written English, has some strict grammatical rules, many of which I don't know because I am a victim of a period in education that decided grammar wasn't that important, not to say that teachers didn't try to teach it, they did, but we knew it didn't matter (wouldn't affect exam marks). Has my lack of grammatical knowledge affected my employment prospects - no - but possibly because I took it upon myself as I got older to read more and understand what grammar is. Still not particularly great.
Spoken English: Let me put my cards on the table. I am from East London. I have a regional accent that has been derided not only by outsiders but by my own peers and family (who speak the same way I do) as "common". When I started working in the City of London I was 'advised' to change the way I speak to fit in. I stopped doing this the moment I heard a Geordie manager, talking to a colleague from Manchester about how bad a Cockneys pronunciation was. I don't understand, and never will, why the way I speak (I drop T's and H's for example) is any worse that someone who say's something like "going t' shops" (and therefore dropped an o, t, h and an e!)
English evolves constantly, like all languages. American English and Spellings are actually old english as a concerted effort was made many years ago in America to protect the language for example, fall, sidewalk, and vacation are all originally English words that have fallen from use. I believe a similar difference exists between French and Canadian French, as more effort is made in Canada to protect the Language.
No one should be vilified for not understanding the rules of English, as has been pointed out by others, the Language borrows from other languages and brings different (sometimes contradictory) rules with it. but also when a mistake is made, and pointed out gracefully, the correction should be accepted gracefully.
Finally, for anyone who thinks that English stays still can I suggest the following reading list:
The Original King James Bible
Pilgrims Progress
Romeo and Juliet
Jude the Obscure
Jane Eyre
David Copperfield
The Woman in White
anything by P G Woodhouse
The Wasp Factory
(Whilst I did spellcheck this message please accept any errors as my own)
When I was at school one of the english teachers told everyone that english is a very complex language, which I believe to be true. On this forum we have Dick saying that it is not rocket science on the one hand and then saying that spelling can be complicated,with the trouble that the vast majority of people have with getting all aspects of english correct I would say that it is very complicated.Getting to another point as all members of this forum both post and do woodwork to the best of their ability I cannot understand why people are derided for mistakes in english.Say someone posts a picture of some dovetails that they have done,and they are slightly imperfect and they also misspell dovetails,why does it seem perfectly acceptable for some people to say"It infuriates me when someone misspells this word, why cant they get it right"if this is deemed acceptable is it also acceptable to say"It infuriates me when people get dovetails wrong why cant they get it right"as to my mind as they have done both things to the best of their ability I cannot see any difference.
Dan
Thank you for your explanation of draw/drawer, I just think that it would have been more appropriate at the time of the posting error.And Arthur Negus died several years ago so would only appear on telly on repeats.
Dennis
Dan
Thank you for your explanation of draw/drawer, I just think that it would have been more appropriate at the time of the posting error.And Arthur Negus died several years ago so would only appear on telly on repeats.
Dennis
Smudger
Established Member
Dave
I've never been good on English grammar (despite having a degree in it!) because it is
a) complicated, and
b) not a very good description of the way the language is actually used.
So if you want me to parse a sentence, I can't. I could when I was 11...
The trouble was that in the 18th century the academicians tried to make English fit into a Latin grammar. It doesn't! The same happened with spelling - an example:
In Old English/Middle English there was a very good word for the bit of your face above the eyes - the 'forred'. May have been related to 'forward'. The academicians decide that this was the 'fore head' - the front of the head - which it isn't, of course, but that fitted into their general tidying up. In grammatical terms that also explains why the first person singular past tense of 'to eat' is pronounced 'et' but spelled 'ate'.
I could never raise a lot of enthusiasm for it. I found that reading widely (as you wisely suggest) gave me a familiarity with good English which just allowed me to recognise what is right and what isn't.
Spelling is different, as it bears so much on pronunciation.
And you are so correct about 'Americanisms' - they are very often the original, English spelling. My spell check is telling me that 'recognise' should be 'recognize' - and it is probably right!
I've never been good on English grammar (despite having a degree in it!) because it is
a) complicated, and
b) not a very good description of the way the language is actually used.
So if you want me to parse a sentence, I can't. I could when I was 11...
The trouble was that in the 18th century the academicians tried to make English fit into a Latin grammar. It doesn't! The same happened with spelling - an example:
In Old English/Middle English there was a very good word for the bit of your face above the eyes - the 'forred'. May have been related to 'forward'. The academicians decide that this was the 'fore head' - the front of the head - which it isn't, of course, but that fitted into their general tidying up. In grammatical terms that also explains why the first person singular past tense of 'to eat' is pronounced 'et' but spelled 'ate'.
I could never raise a lot of enthusiasm for it. I found that reading widely (as you wisely suggest) gave me a familiarity with good English which just allowed me to recognise what is right and what isn't.
Spelling is different, as it bears so much on pronunciation.
And you are so correct about 'Americanisms' - they are very often the original, English spelling. My spell check is telling me that 'recognise' should be 'recognize' - and it is probably right!
Smudger
Established Member
dennis":1toptueu said:
If the spelling of dovetail made the meaning unclear, then we would have a problem.
As for the drawer thing - it is simply because people are tactful and don't wish to make someone look foolish (plus the knowledge that there are always people who will make an issue of corrections) that they don't correct on the spot. This used to be called the Chrysanthemum Conundrum. If someone mispronounces a word in conversation with you, do you pronounce the word properly or copy their mispronunciation? Does the same apply in informal media such as the internet?
And it isn't rocket science. We regularly discuss things here which are much harder and require far more expertise and expert advice than spelling.
Smudger
Established Member
Really? I thought it was you who raised the use of the word.
No if you look back at a post asking for information on draw runners you will see what happened. I only stepped in to say that there was confusion over draw/drawer because of the way it is sometimes pronounced and felt that there was no need to deride someone for an innocent mistake.
Dennis
Dennis
Smudger":2ahoaw6v said:
didn't mean to P you off, sorry.
I just saw the humor of the use of such words on a thread about poor state of peoples ability to use /understand the language.
Don't dumb it down on my account - but maybe consider that this thread might have a point, and by using 'correct' words you are less likely to communicate effectively with the full readership of the forum.
[/i]
Smudger
Established Member
So you are saying dumb it down because the people here won't understand?
I think you are underestimating them very badly indeed.
I think you are underestimating them very badly indeed.
I didn't say they wouldn't understand - although there might be some that don't !
I said 'communicate effectively' , it's different. Just because a word has the correct meaning for what you are trying to say doesn't make it the best word for getting the message across - would you not agree ?
apart from anything else, we do have foreign members too
I said 'communicate effectively' , it's different. Just because a word has the correct meaning for what you are trying to say doesn't make it the best word for getting the message across - would you not agree ?
apart from anything else, we do have foreign members too
Smudger
Established Member
I don't agree.
I understand what Tusses is saying as sometimes choice of words although correct can sometimes slightly complicate the message intended.Where I work every task no matter how simple requires a permit to work stating any hazards likely to be encountered,methods to be used and what safety equipment to be worn.One point that I regularly get is,care to be taken when using sharp tools which I find after over 45 years joinering amusing and generally say that I am safe enough as all my tools are blunt.Not so long ago I had one that said,Please ensure removal of all waste materials generated through working practice.I think a simple,clean up, would have been enough.
I didn't think you would but nowt wrong with that !
probably best we leave it at disagreeing then.
8)
on topic .... I am on another forum where there is a very nice young lady who spells the odd word as it sounds - like 'meny'
I've met her and she is as nice as they come, I dont think anything lass of her for it. My spelling is terrible - as I find it tedious, so I am not inclined to improve. I mean ... I before E except after C ... but it doesn't work, and there is no logic as to when it should ! Maybe there is, if I was to dig a little deeper into the history of the English language ? - but without the interest, it aint gonna happen
I try when it matters - but most of the time, if I spot a mistake, I will leave it.
Give me computer programming any day - and yes, when programming you HAVE to spell correctly or it wont compile. Hex - Binary C+ OOPs ... all logical and I love it.
on the other hand I like ancient Chinese philosophy and that has a logic all of it's own ! go figure :?
but nowt wrong with that !probably best we leave it at disagreeing then.
8)
on topic .... I am on another forum where there is a very nice young lady who spells the odd word as it sounds - like 'meny'
I've met her and she is as nice as they come, I dont think anything lass of her for it. My spelling is terrible - as I find it tedious, so I am not inclined to improve. I mean ... I before E except after C ... but it doesn't work, and there is no logic as to when it should ! Maybe there is, if I was to dig a little deeper into the history of the English language ? - but without the interest, it aint gonna happen
I try when it matters - but most of the time, if I spot a mistake, I will leave it.
Give me computer programming any day - and yes, when programming you HAVE to spell correctly or it wont compile. Hex - Binary C+ OOPs ... all logical and I love it.
on the other hand I like ancient Chinese philosophy and that has a logic all of it's own ! go figure :?
Perhaps it's time to draw/drawer a veil/vale across or a line through/threw this debate before it becomes heated, otherwise who knows/nose where/wear/ware it might/mite finish/Finnish and we could be/Bee here/hear all night/Knight!
Roy.
Roy.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I find this thread both shocking and appalling. There are people here defending bad grammar, punctuation, and spelling.
Just take a second and think about what you are really saying when you take such a stance!!!! :roll:
http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/
Just take a second and think about what you are really saying when you take such a stance!!!! :roll:
http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/
I'm not going to read it all again - but I don't recall anyone saying poor English is a good thing ?
Just that some people such as yourself are more bothered about it than others, such as myself
just two different takes on the subject
Just that some people such as yourself
are more bothered about it than others, such as myself just two different takes on the subject
