Opting out of the NHS central database

[RogerS]

There has recently been much discussion about this.

If anyone is interested, further informed opinion and details on how to opt out can be found here.

Comments welcome but please ...no rants :lol:

 

[mudman]

Roger,

Thanks for that. I've been intending to look for something like this as I don't want my records being sent to all and sundry. I intend to get the entire family to do this.

 

[Fred Page]

Roger,
You seem to feel strongly about this and I tend towards your feelings.
Yes, I will do something about it but at present I'm getting myself geared up over the TRIDENT project. I have a great belief that nobody has the right to drop anything on anybody - whether nuclear or otherwise. With this belief I'm ready to kick at anything - so why not the great NHS data base?
Sorry to note your posting hasn't received much attention.
Fred.
Kington in the English Marches.

 

[RogerS]

Thanks, Fred. I was a bit surprised as well. Maybe folks aren't worried about agency staff (aka the next door neighbour, the bloke down the pub) having a decko at their medical records

 

[Colin C]

Thanks Roger

As for me this is some thing I was not clear on until now but I think I will be doing the same as you

 

[WoodStoat]

Letter printed and in envelope. Many thanks for the timely reminder.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Fred. I was a bit surprised as well. Maybe folks aren't worried about agency staff (aka the next door neighbour, the bloke down the pub) having a decko at their medical records

Worried??? I really couldn't care less!!!

 

[Paul Chapman]

Knowing a bit about this database and the cock-up it's likely to be (surprise, surprise :roll: ), I think we should all be very concerned :shock:

Cheers :ho2

Paul

 

[mudman]

Thanks, Fred. I was a bit surprised as well. Maybe folks aren't worried about agency staff (aka the next door neighbour, the bloke down the pub) having a decko at their medical records

Worried??? I really couldn't care less!!!

I'm sorry Tony but that is the attitude that has allowed our basic freedoms to be gradually eroded over the last few years.

I did start to write a bit more here but it was turning into a diatribe against the current government and the 'couldn't care less' and 'if you've nothing to hide why are you worried' people so I thought it would be better to leave it at that.

 

[Anonymous]

Mudman- Tony only gave an honest reply whats wrong with that, now your trying to make him feel guilty about something he genuinely couldn't care less about.
If I order the things that are currently important to me this would also rate in the couldn't care less bracket. That doesn't mean its right or wrong or I don't understand what it means or I'm not bothered about its implications it just means that right here right now its unimportant to me.

 

[Alf]

Possibly a lot of sensible folks have avoided it as being a topic highly likely to wander off into politics - and you've all read the simple forum rules posted at the top of every board, haven't you...?

Cheers, Alf

 

[Nick W]

Having worked (albeit briefly) in the sort of organisations that get the contracts to do this sort of work I wouldn't trust them to get my name right, let alone keep my personal data secure. :evil:

 

[Noel]

Well, thanks to Roger I'm now up to speed on all this. Agree with most of what's been said and I'll be opting out along with my kids.

 

[mudman]

Mudman- Tony only gave an honest reply whats wrong with that, now your trying to make him feel guilty about something he genuinely couldn't care less about.
If I order the things that are currently important to me this would also rate in the couldn't care less bracket. That doesn't mean its right or wrong or I don't understand what it means or I'm not bothered about its implications it just means that right here right now its unimportant to me.

Senior,
Sorry if I came on a bit strong there but what I was saying is that the couldn't care less attitude is one that is taking this country down a road that I really don't want to travel.
We all need to start caring a bit more about everything, otherwise, we only have ourselves to blame when we wake up one day in the future, to the fact that this country isn't such a pleasant place to live anymore.

 

[RogerM]

Thanks, Fred. I was a bit surprised as well. Maybe folks aren't worried about agency staff (aka the next door neighbour, the bloke down the pub) having a decko at their medical records

Worried??? I really couldn't care less!!!

Actually I tend to agree with Tony. There is a tendency to oppose anything that is "new". For instance, I would expect that if a notebook and pencil had only just been invented there would be those that would oppose the police being able to use them.

With regards to access by agency staff and all and sundry, I would be very surprised if there were not safeguards in place that would prevent anyone accessing records other than those applying to a patient that you are dealing with at a medical/treatment level. For instance, I have access to the Halifax plc database, which gives me access to the financial records of 22 million people. I know of no quicker way to lose my job than to start trawling thru a list of people I know on a "nosy" basis, also ensuring that I never work in the industry again. Yet we expect to be able to go into any bank or building society office in the country and expect staff to have immediate access to our details to provide the service we require.

If it's OK for financial data why is it wrong for an A&E department in any hospital in the country to have access to your medical history to establish if you have any allergies, or if you are on a course of prescribed drugs that may affect the treatment that they deem appropriate for you when you are bought in after an accident. Personally I think it is nonsensical for data like this to have to follow you around in a paper format by Royal mail, with all the delays and inefficiencies this implies.

For me the potential benefits outweigh the "civil liberties" arguments.

Just my 2 penn'orth of non political opinion! Happy Xmas!

 

[Freetochat]

Thanks, Fred. I was a bit surprised as well. Maybe folks aren't worried about agency staff (aka the next door neighbour, the bloke down the pub) having a decko at their medical records

Worried??? I really couldn't care less!!!

Actually I tend to agree with Tony. There is a tendency to oppose anything that is "new". For instance, I would expect that if a notebook and pencil had only just been invented there would be those that would oppose the police being able to use them.

With regards to access by agency staff and all and sundry, I would be very surprised if there were not safeguards in place that would prevent anyone accessing records other than those applying to a patient that you are dealing with at a medical/treatment level. For instance, I have access to the Halifax plc database, which gives me access to the financial records of 22 million people. I know of no quicker way to lose my job than to start trawling thru a list of people I know on a "nosy" basis, also ensuring that I never work in the industry again. Yet we expect to be able to go into any bank or building society office in the country and expect staff to have immediate access to our details to provide the service we require.

If it's OK for financial data why is it wrong for an A&E department in any hospital in the country to have access to your medical history to establish if you have any allergies, or if you are on a course of prescribed drugs that may affect the treatment that they deem appropriate for you when you are bought in after an accident. Personally I think it is nonsensical for data like this to have to follow you around in a paper format by Royal mail, with all the delays and inefficiencies this implies.

For me the potential benefits outweigh the "civil liberties" arguments.

Just my 2 penn'orth of non political opinion! Happy Xmas!

Absolutely!

 

[RogerS]

With regards to access by agency staff and all and sundry, I would be very surprised if there were not safeguards in place that would prevent anyone accessing records other than those applying to a patient that you are dealing with at a medical/treatment level.

You can't put this in place since potentially any of the 250,000 or so staff (and the 1500 or so additional contract staff 'spare' user accounts) will need access to anyones' records as they come through A&E.

For instance, I have access to the Halifax plc database, which gives me access to the financial records of 22 million people. I know of no quicker way to lose my job than to start trawling thru a list of people I know on a "nosy" basis, also ensuring that I never work in the industry again.

Very true and I am sure that the vast majority of NHS staff are 100% trustworthy. But if you were a contract nurse and just about to end your contract and return to your home country....would you be concerned about not working again?

if you have any allergies, or if you are on a course of prescribed drugs that may affect the treatment that they deem appropriate for you when you are bought in after an accident.

Having been involved in Government IT systems (and also Halifax's !) and also watching the whole NHS saga from an IT perspective, the very last place I would want to rely on being (a) available and (b) up-to-date is the NHS computer. If I had an allergy then I would carry an SOS card or similar. If I had a serious allergy then I'd probably even consider tattooing that where they stick in the intravenous drip although that might be going a bit far !!!

 

[Taffy Turner]

Roger,

Thanks for the link - I shall certainly be opting out.

Regards

Gary

 

[RogerM]

With regards to access by agency staff and all and sundry, I would be very surprised if there were not safeguards in place that would prevent anyone accessing records other than those applying to a patient that you are dealing with at a medical/treatment level.

You can't put this in place since potentially any of the 250,000 or so staff (and the 1500 or so additional contract staff 'spare' user accounts) will need access to anyones' records as they come through A&E.

On that basis every one of the 70,000 or so HBOS employees would have unfettered access to financial records which is plainly not the case. In the NHS it would be simple to restrict access to records to senior admissions staff in A&E, and to senior staff nurses (for example) on the wards, and for access to be limited to patients on those wards. All access would require passwords and/or an ID card, and there would be an audit trail of all access, and by who.

For instance, I have access to the Halifax plc database, which gives me access to the financial records of 22 million people. I know of no quicker way to lose my job than to start trawling thru a list of people I know on a "nosy" basis, also ensuring that I never work in the industry again.

Very true and I am sure that the vast majority of NHS staff are 100% trustworthy. But if you were a contract nurse and just about to end your contract and return to your home country....would you be concerned about not working again?

On that basis no one in a bank branch would have access to details in any other branch on the basis that relief cashiers would trawl thru the database. In reality, when you work in the banking sector, it is just "data" and the overwhelming majority of staff would not be in the slightest bit interested in trawling thru records just for interest. I suspect that NHS staff would be the same - most couldn't care less. And with a proper audit trail and access policy it wouldn't be worth the risk.

if you have any allergies, or if you are on a course of prescribed drugs that may affect the treatment that they deem appropriate for you when you are bought in after an accident.

Having been involved in Government IT systems (and also Halifax's !) and also watching the whole NHS saga from an IT perspective, the very last place I would want to rely on being (a) available and (b) up-to-date is the NHS computer. If I had an allergy then I would carry an SOS card or similar.

Ahh! Now don't get me started on the subject of government sponsored IT projects. But are you saying that because (very) occasionally banks systems have a hiccup that you would want to go back to a system of hand written ledgers, in Stephens Blue ink (in the interests of fine handwriting!).

If I had a serious allergy then I'd probably even consider tattooing that where they stick in the intravenous drip although that might be going a bit far !!!

Are you looking for a list with diagrams from "Grays Anatomy"? :lol: :lol:

It is so easy to criticise change. But you really need to be consistent. When you move house and register with a new GP is it really so unacceptable for them to be able to access your medical records? I'm not advocating that ALL staff in all GP surgeries have access to all records, but what is the problem with the GPs and the practise nurse at your new GP's surgery having access to your records electronically. At the moment they follow by post several weeks after you register. They regularly go missing, sometimes ending up in the wrong hands, or just simply being unavailable to help medical staff diagnose and treat patients effectively because they are in transit. Is this really preferable to a properly managed and safeguarded electronic system? Archaic or what?

And if it is unacceptable, why is it not equally unacceptable for bank staff in any branch to access your financial data? Shouldn't we go back to the practise of the 1960's of the new branch having to phone your old branch (at your expense) just to see what balance you have in your account before you can withdraw cash whilst on holiday?

I shall not be opting out. When I get taken in to a hospital after a heart attack or stroke I shall be very glad that they have immediate access to my records rather than rely on the Christmas post to get records transferred from my GP. If I'm receiving emergency treatment I want the professionals (and most NHS staff are VERY professional) to make their decisions from a fully informed position. Yes - there will be teething problems, and there will need to be a range of protocols in place to avoid nosiness from staff who don't need access to treat you, but the way forward is to overcome these problems rather than to remain in the "quill and ink" era.

ccasion5:

 

[RogerS]

Hi Roger

Started to get really clever and ended up with a jumbled mess of quotes..so reverting to a basic reply.

I would argue from a system design perspective that there is a huge difference between your HBOS customer base and the NHS 'customer base'. Both have a 'known' set of customers. However, in the case of HBOS, even with all the wide variety of different financial products, it is relatively easy to restrict access according to sign-off level or whatever criteria you like to use.

Let's take A&E as an example. Any NHS 'customer' can appear at any number of locations and all staff in those locations need access. If I was bleeding to death the last thing that I'd want is the computer to say 'No' since the person trying to treat me doesn't have access authority. I want them to be treating me not fussing with a keyboard.

Yes, there are also audit trails. But my point is...so what? An audit trail is only of any real use if the miscreant is still working for you. My point is that if you are a contract staff member then you don't necessarily care that the 'system' knows that you have been trawling. Posit the current intense media interest in the two suspects for the Ipswitch murders. Do you really think that they media would not be able to find at least one member of the NHS staff who for, say £10000, would dive in and fetch the medical details of the two suspects?

Yes..there is also supposedly the 'sealed envelope' concept but that seems to have died a death. Certainly it's not being implemented any time soon. And if they've not scoped it in at this stage then we all know how difficult it is to retrofit stuff into computer systems.

Even relatively trivial systems can fail because the 'obvious' wasn't considered. I'll give you an example closer to home! When they installed the pass barriers at Halifax HQ in Trinity Road, as it was a trial they only installed the barriers in one of the two main entrances. The system logged people out as well as in. Unfortunately there is the 'bridge' between the two main buildings and any staff exiting by the other non-passbarrier protected building did not get their status updated. The computer thought that they were still in the building. When they arrived for work the next day and tried to get in, the computer said 'No'!

I have infinitely more faith in a financial services company getting their IT systems right than any civil service department. When Halifax/Leeds merged, they were installing new PCs across the network at the rate of one every few minutes. Fully functional...give or take. That was pretty impressive. How many crashes have their been with the new NHS system?

I'm not a luddite but like to think that I take the pragmatic view. I see the potential disadvantages far outweigh any potential benefits. You take the opposite view. C'est la vie.

:wink: