Myths & Mysteries

[CHJ]

There's a lot of discussion abt wood suitable for benches. Mine's redwood. I thought I might upgrade it with one of these http://www.vinylwarehouse.co.uk/wood-finishes-9-c.asp but can't decide which would be most suitable.
What does the panel think?

I take it you'll be updating the new windows as well Jacob. :twisted:

 

[Doug B]

What does the panel think?

Look classy in blackwood Jacob, but remember.........don`t forget your squeegee :lol: :lol:

 

[Jacob]

He's at it again! http://paulsellers.com/2012/06/plane-ch ... -by-facts/
No comment!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

+1 for no comment.

 

[DTR]

He's at it again! http://paulsellers.com/2012/06/plane-ch ... -by-facts/
No comment!

At what, exactly? He's declared that chatter is actually scudding (!?), and it can be prevented, but he doesn't say how!

 

[Jacob]

He's at it again! http://paulsellers.com/2012/06/plane-ch ... -by-facts/
No comment!

At what, exactly? He's declared that chatter is actually scudding (!?), and it can be prevented, but he doesn't say how!

I think he's suggesting that it's just a matter of practice and nothing to do with buying replacement planes or components, and I agree. I get "chatter" very rarely at the start - but it always means I'm just being careless and not doing it right; plane blade loose, workpiece loose, worsened by blunt blade over-extended etc. It hardly deserves a name - it's just a mistake, like missing a nail with a hammer.

 

[Benchwayze]

And all this time, Paul Sellers had the answer. Only now does he come out of the 'woodwork', and enlighten us all..
Yeah okay.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I asked Paul a question on his blog. There were three issues in all. The last was about BU planes, as he raised this with the following comment. I quote:

I used a regular Stanley # 4 ½ smoothing plane with all standard parts to plane into adverse grain and this is what it produced, the bevel-up planes worsened the dilemma.

I asked, "As to a poor result when planing with a BU plane, you do need to also state what the cutting angle was. A plane is a plane, but BU planes can vary the cutting angle quite widely, and this will have a significant impact on the resulting planing performance."

His reply,

I cannot give BU planes much credibility beyond end or crossgrain plaining because the risk of surface damage is so much higher than with bevel down planes. In all surface grain there will be grain direction and if you are planing in the right direction all will go well. If the wrong direction, the damage will be twice as bad with a BU plane though. All of my BU planes are bedded at 12-degrees. I do not generally use block planes for anything except taking chamfers off of hard corners but even then I mostly use a my #4 or # 4 1/2 smoother.

To my mind it appears that he is referring to the use of a small block plane (with a 37 degree cutting angle), in which case he is not discussing apples versus apples. Or, if he is referring to BU bench planes, he has never set one up correctly.

It is his blog, so I did not pursue the matter.

However, if this is representative of the depth of his knowledge about methods other than his own, then it just seems like he is pushing his own barrow.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Benchwayze]

However, if this is representative of the depth of his knowledge about methods other than his own, then it just seems like he is pushing his own barrow.

Regards from Perth

Derek

That sums it up nicely Derek. Thumbs-up to it.

 

[Jacob]

Whose barrow should he push then?
I have to say I agree completely with his note about chatter. I've always been mystified by it as it isn't something I've ever encountered except either when just doing things hopelessly wrong (instantly correctable) or as that very regular mark of a buzzing overworked rebate blade, which is just normal.
What do people mean by chatter, what does it look like (photos) when/how do they get it? Let's get to the bottom of it - a lot of people talk about it - what the f is it?

PS I also agree with him about block planes (corners) except I'd add they are good for one handed use and for rounding off - which is basically "corners" again

 

[Jacob]

I just googled "woodwork plane chatter" images and nothing comes up (showing it) except Paul Seller's own snaps. Chatter is just another myth?

PS there is one other snap of a badly mauled piece of wood which has obviously being incompetently planed by a complete novice. Is that what we are talking about?

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi Jacob

There is no mystery what causes chatter (the first picture was chatter, the second was a lunging novice). My reply to PS stated this (agreed with him).

However ..

He seems at pains to make a point about something so elementary. What is the real motive?

Then he makes a comment about BU planes, which is completely (a) out of left field, and (b) inaccurate. Again, this is all so much posturing. Well, he knows that he has an audience, and he is milking it for all he's worth.

David Savage does the same thing. Both he and Paul Sellers attend to create an image of being The Rebel - or, The Only One With The Truth.

It's all just marketing, and it is interesting as long as you don't let it get to you.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

Hi Jacob

There is no mystery what causes chatter (the first picture was chatter, the second was a lunging novice). My reply to PS stated this (agreed with him).

OK. But the first picture is what you get if you overwork a plane. You just do it more slowly or retract the blade a touch if you don't want it. In a window rebate it doesn't matter so you just belt along chattering or not.

However ..

He seems at pains to make a point about something so elementary. What is the real motive?....

Because chatter is talked about endlessly as a problem requiring solutions such as better planes or components. It's a major theme in plane conversations , but the chatter in your sense above is completely inconsequential and of no interest as it is so easy to avoid (if you want to). So I can say correctly that I've never experienced chatter in any meaningful sense, except as a lunging novice! As a problem it's a myth. No need to chatter on about chatter then, as one more myth bites the dust!

 

[Argus]

.

At the risk of putting my head over the parapet, there are woodworkers who can work wood and writers who can write, but seldom both together in the same personage.

And whilst I agree with much of what Paul says once I've worked out what it is, ............... he's very good at the former.


.

If Mr Sellers is reading this thread, he must have the skin of a rhinoceros by now.

In the series on planning problems alone his is stating the obvious, which to my reading of it is,
“if it’s gone wrong, change something”.

What I meant to say earlier and quote here, is that whatever else he is good at, in my view writing is not one of them.
Viewing some of his vids, I find that he writes exactly as he speaks and in his case, the spoken word does not transplant well to the page.
From a personal perspective, I find his writing style hard going. This means that I need to read what he has written two or three time to work out what he’s saying. A bit of punctuation in the right place would also help.

Whether he’s right or wrong, or a prophet without honour in his own land, we’ve all spent five pages working out the gist of it.

 

[Benchwayze]

Does the plane chatter when the iron needs honing? Is that what PS is trying to say?

Elsewhere, in making a bench-top, he also says that enough glue will hold a 'bowed' joint and prevent it from opening along its length.

Who's he kidding? Himself? :roll:

 

[Jacob]

I think he's trying to discover what the 'chatter' is which seems to be so problematic in woodwork forums.
It clearly isn't the first type - that's normal planing when a sharp and properly set up plane is worked hard i.e. at speed and/or with deep cut, and is easily remedied - less speed/depth. Not a problem. Doesn't even need remedying in window rebates out of sight, where the speed and depth makes for faster work.
So he thinks it must be the second type i.e. what Derek calls "the lunging of a novice".
So what does everybody else see is the chatter problem? I'm mystified myself, as it's not something I've suffered from. Send in your snaps!

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Jacob, PS is not "trying to discover" anything, as you suggest. He is telling you he knows it all.

He wrote: "Alright, I tried with all my might to get a regular thin iron in a Stanley smoothing plane to produce true surface chatter on oak and finally succeeded after a dozen or more attempts. This took great effort because I wanted to show you visually that what most people bring to me as chatter is not and never was chatter".

He then goes on to show you what his blog is all about (I've come to rescue you from the bad guys) ...

He writes, "Plane makers knew this at the time but said nothing because they could capitalize on the misinformation put out in magazines that kept people in ignorance".

And there you have it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Jacob]

Well yes and I tend to agree with him much of the time. There is a load of baloney talked about woodwork and his alternative view is refreshing. And he does the stuff - not just obsessing about tools, making sample dovetails or prolonged sharpening courses!

 

[woodbrains]

Hey Jacob,

If chatter is a myth, then why did you sing the praises of Clifton cap irons when you finally took the hint that better cap irons give better results, (by reducing chatter, what else?) and fitted one? You even stated that they are so good, it makes your BU smother redundant! Contradictory or just a poor memory. Paul Sellers is still a poor source of info, you would be better embracing the wealth of knowledge here; his barrow probably still has a square wheel!

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Hey Jacob,

If chatter is a myth, then why did you sing the praises of Clifton cap irons when you finally took the hint that better cap irons give better results, (by reducing chatter, what else?) and fitted one? You even stated that they are so good, it makes your BU smother redundant! Contradictory or just a poor memory. Paul Sellers is still a poor source of info, you would be better embracing the wealth of knowledge here; his barrow probably still has a square wheel!

Mike.

"chatter" didn't come into it. I don't get chatter except in Derek's terms of amateur lungeing, when I've forgotten to set things up etc. Loose workpiece being the most likely cause.
I keep asking for photos but non are forthcoming.