Maybe I won't be buying mortice chisels...

[Jacob]

#-o Here we go again! #-o

See! ......I told you!

Yep :lol: :lol:

And the only 100% undisputable post on this thread :wink: even Jacob can't argue with that - or maybe...............? #-o

There is another indisputable feature of this thread - the large number of posts (including yours) which add nothing at all remotely useful or interesting.
Yep :lol: :lol:

 

[Jacob]

When I was at college, all the mortise chisels had rounded bevels. I haven't used one since though. We were also taught that method for chopping mortises, except we left a bit at each end to lever against if necessary which was cleaned out as the last part of the process.

Ditto except we were taught to hold them vertically all the time and work the face forwards - not the back as per Sellers' demo. It amounts to the same thing I suppose. We were also told never to lever on a through mortice (the chippings get pushed out anyway) and not to lever on a blind mortice except at the very end, to remove chippings.

 

[Lons]

There is another indisputable feature of this thread - the large number of posts (including yours) which add nothing at all remotely useful or interesting.
Yep :lol: :lol:

And the one above you've just posted is interesting - - - how exactly ? :lol:

 

[Jacob]

There is another indisputable feature of this thread - the large number of posts (including yours) which add nothing at all remotely useful or interesting.
Yep :lol: :lol:

And the one above you've just posted is interesting - - - how exactly ? :lol:

It's about morticing with a chisel. Yours isn't.

 

[Lons]

It's about morticing with a chisel. Yours isn't.

No it isn't. it's purely a comment about my post! i.e. you wrote:

There is another indisputable feature of this thread - the large number of posts (including yours) which add nothing at all remotely useful or interesting.
Yep

Not much point in arguing with a guy who can't read his own writing :lol:

 

[Giff]

A Domino works as well so long as you hit it with a big hammer.. :!:

 

[marcus]

You can cut perfectly good mortises happily with either. If you cut more than a few (particularly deep ones in hardwood) and you own a nice set of delicate BE chisels, then it makes sense to have some mortice chisels too, because you are risking damage your BE ones if you mortice with them a lot and hit them hard or lever. Tools were invented for a reason and it's no fun babying tools that aren't meant for the job.

If someone works wood for fun, as an amateur, and wants a set of mortice chisels for morticing, which is the traditonal tool for the job, then I say go for it. They're nice things to own and such people have helped support a genuine renaissance in the tool making crafts which were almost dead and buried twenty years ago. Hooray!

 

[bugbear]

You can cut perfectly good mortises happily with either. If you cut more than a few (particularly deep ones in hardwood) and you own a nice set of delicate BE chisels, then it makes sense to have some mortice chisels too, because you are risking damage your BE ones if you mortice with them a lot and hit them hard or lever. Tools were invented for a reason and it's no fun babying tools that aren't meant for the job.

I was thinking of this thread this morning. I was at my firewood pile, with a 2½ lb axe in my hand. Any log that I deemed a little too big to burn nicely, I halved. The axe was an ideal size for this task, since the main splitting was done in autumn, with a 5½ Lb axe.

At the end, I decided to make some very small logs (loglets?) to help the lighting of the fire. I managed this task successfully with the axe, by choking up on the handle.

But my 9" Norfolk pattern billhook (by Whitehouse of Cannock ) would have been a better tool, and is the tool I always use when preparing a box of kindling.

Summary: many things will suffice as work rounds, but this doesn't alter the fact of the superiority of the proper tool.

BugBear

 

[Lee J]

he cut below the line on both those mortises, a bit clumsy to be honest. I don't think I'll pay much attention to him. I'll carry on using a sharpened garden spade, knocking it in with the back of my transit van.

 

[Jacob]

You can cut perfectly good mortises happily with either. If you cut more than a few (particularly deep ones in hardwood) and you own a nice set of delicate BE chisels, then it makes sense to have some mortice chisels too, because you are risking damage your BE ones if you mortice with them a lot and hit them hard or lever. Tools were invented for a reason and it's no fun babying tools that aren't meant for the job.

I was thinking of this thread this morning. I was at my firewood pile, with a 2½ lb axe in my hand. Any log that I deemed a little too big to burn nicely, I halved. The axe was an ideal size for this task, since the main splitting was done in autumn, with a 5½ Lb axe.

At the end, I decided to make some very small logs (loglets?) to help the lighting of the fire. I managed this task successfully with the axe, by choking up on the handle.

But my 9" Norfolk pattern billhook (by Whitehouse of Cannock ) would have been a better tool, and is the tool I always use when preparing a box of kindling.

Summary: many things will suffice as work rounds, but this doesn't alter the fact of the superiority of the proper tool.

BugBear

A billhook is for hedging - not for splitting logs. A small axe is much better. The trick is hold the end of the piece to be split, with a bit of a stick. You can then belt it hard and precisely with an axe without risking your fingers.
No need to hold it up the handle either.
With care (and a little stick) you can shape a dowel with an axe, down to 1/2" diameter or so, if not too long.

Like this below, with a bit of board instead of a stick, in this snap. The board guides the axe quite precisely. Perfect for kindling as well.

 

[Webby]

he cut below the line on both those mortises, a bit clumsy to be honest. I don't think I'll pay much attention to him. I'll carry on using a sharpened garden spade, knocking it in with the back of my transit van.

that was for the glue :mrgreen:

also how do you know that you havent gone to deep in a blind mortice :?: :lol: you cant see in

 

[Jacob]

he cut below the line on both those mortises, a bit clumsy to be honest. I don't think I'll pay much attention to him. I'll carry on using a sharpened garden spade, knocking it in with the back of my transit van.

that was for the glue :mrgreen:

also how do you know that you havent gone to deep in a blind mortice :?: :lol: you cant see in

Above the line is wrong. Exactly on the line is pointless. Below the line is just right!

 

[bugbear]

You can cut perfectly good mortises happily with either. If you cut more than a few (particularly deep ones in hardwood) and you own a nice set of delicate BE chisels, then it makes sense to have some mortice chisels too, because you are risking damage your BE ones if you mortice with them a lot and hit them hard or lever. Tools were invented for a reason and it's no fun babying tools that aren't meant for the job.

I was thinking of this thread this morning. I was at my firewood pile, with a 2½ lb axe in my hand. Any log that I deemed a little too big to burn nicely, I halved. The axe was an ideal size for this task, since the main splitting was done in autumn, with a 5½ Lb axe.

At the end, I decided to make some very small logs (loglets?) to help the lighting of the fire. I managed this task successfully with the axe, by choking up on the handle.

But my 9" Norfolk pattern billhook (by Whitehouse of Cannock ) would have been a better tool, and is the tool I always use when preparing a box of kindling.

Summary: many things will suffice as work rounds, but this doesn't alter the fact of the superiority of the proper tool.

BugBear

A billhook is for hedging - not for splitting logs. A small axe is much better. The trick is hold the end of the piece to be split, with a bit of a stick. You can then belt it hard and precisely with an axe without risking your fingers.
No need to hold it up the handle either.
With care (and a little stick) you can shape a dowel with an axe, down to 1/2" diameter or so, if not too long.

Like this below, with a bit of board instead of a stick, in this snap. The board guides the axe quite precisely. Perfect for kindling as well.

At the risk of topic drift...

You show an excellent way to trim a board to size with an axe.

I don't see its applicability to splitting a 2" workpiece in two, which was the task at hand.

For (actual) kindling; I own small axes, hatchets (in various weights) and several patterns of billhook.

My strong preference for cutting kindling is the billhook I described. Others are very welcome to their own preferences.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

....
You show an excellent way to trim a board to size with an axe.

I don't see its applicability to splitting a 2" workpiece in two, which was the task at hand.....

Try it and you will see. Basically you just prop one bit of kindling with another, the same principle as a push stick. Size doesn't come into it - can even be two men and big axe - one holds the prop, the other the axe.
People have been doing this for 1000s of years. No point in arguing against it BB.

 

[bugbear]

....
You show an excellent way to trim a board to size with an axe.

I don't see its applicability to splitting a 2" workpiece in two, which was the task at hand.....

Try it and you will see. Basically you just prop one bit of kindling with another, the same principle as a push stick. Size doesn't come into it - can even be two men and big axe - one holds the prop, the other the axe.
People have been doing this for 1000s of years. No point in arguing against it BB.

My apologies - I had misread the picture. I thought the board was being trimmed, and the stick was the aid, which is precisely the opposite of the truth.

That looks like an excellent technique (which I will remember) where accuracy is needed (blanks for dowel making, perhaps), but my aim with both billhook and axe is good enough that I don't need it for hearth fodder.

Having split a log into rough planks, I simply hold the plank in my left hand, and make kindling sticks at around 1 per second - it's like chopping carrots for a stew, no guide needed. Chop, chop. chop.

I chop firewood freehand (ironic, isn't it?)

BugBear

 

[marcus]

I'm never quite sure what I think of Paul Seller's approach. On the one hand he's clearly a master at the nuts and bolts of hand tool use (as he should be after 45 years!). His methods on the whole are very efficient and well thought through. On the other hand I've never seen a picture of anything he's made that hasn't had a bit of a ho hum quality to it. Of course there may be some amazing things he's done that I haven't seen, but everything that I've seen has, to me, looked competent but a little bit dull, nothing with a real sense of life and spirit to it. Others may see them differently of course.

I tend to see process and mindset as being inseparable from result, so while I enjoy watching his videos and have learnt some useful tips from them, I also take them with a pinch of salt.

If I was going to take a furniture making course I would probably go to Chris Faulkner, because he's the one in the UK whose work, and whose student's work, seems to my eye to have the most life and depth to it. On the whole not flashy, not designer, but work with soul which looks to the past without being stuck there and to the present without selling out to it. After all if you're not using your tools to produce such things then what's the point? Machines can make workaday things more efficiently than hand tools no matter how good you are, so being super-fast with hand tools for its own sake has limited point.

David Pye was right I think. The only way to judge a craftsman is by their work. Period. It really isn't about the tools, except in so far as they are used to persuade a certain quality from the material.

 

[Jacob]

...That looks like an excellent technique (which I will remember) where accuracy is needed (blanks for dowel making, perhaps), but my aim with both billhook and axe is good enough that I don't need it for hearth fodder.

Having split a log into rough planks, I simply hold the plank in my left hand, and make kindling sticks at around 1 per second - it's like chopping carrots for a stew, no guide needed. Chop, chop. chop.

I chop firewood freehand (ironic, isn't it?)

BugBear

Much easier with a prop - you can hit harder, faster, more precisely, with bigger axe, without risking your fingers.

 

[Jacob]

I'm never quite sure what I think of Paul Seller's approach....... everything that I've seen has, to me, looked competent but a little bit dull, nothing with a real sense of life and spirit to it. .....

Well yes his designs are a bit dull on the whole, but perhaps that is appropriate for beginners' projects. I still rate his practical no-nonsense approach to the craft side.
Conversely there was St Jim Krenov - very pretty little designs (albeit very limited in range) but poor craft skills no use to a learner.
I think you just have to pic n mix, nobody is perfect!

 

[bugbear]

...That looks like an excellent technique (which I will remember) where accuracy is needed (blanks for dowel making, perhaps), but my aim with both billhook and axe is good enough that I don't need it for hearth fodder.

Having split a log into rough planks, I simply hold the plank in my left hand, and make kindling sticks at around 1 per second - it's like chopping carrots for a stew, no guide needed. Chop, chop. chop.

I chop firewood freehand (ironic, isn't it?)

BugBear

Much easier with a prop - you can hit harder, faster, more precisely, with bigger axe, without risking your fingers.

Then I guess our experiences and opinions differ - unless you're just arguing for the sake of it, which I wouldn't put past you.

BugBear

 

[marcus]

I was referring more to Seller's own work than to his student's....

I have mixed feelings about old Jim as well. I can't agree that he had poor craft skills, although I agree he worked within quite a narrow range. But the pieces were built to a high standard and the work involved in, say, the silver chests or some of the bow fronted cabinets was quite demanding in places when done to the tolerances he worked to. Also things like impeccable curved edge joints which he did ocassinally aren't a walk in the park.

Against that I do wonder about the stability of his coopered doors, and I don't like many of his designs, and I like them less the older I get. But I appreciate the care he bought to details like surface texture and edges and door placement, which is unusual and very nice if you are the sort of person who likes that sort of thing, which I am.