Chisel Buying Advice

[jcassidy]

Hey, how did you get on with the saws?
Tenon Saw Problem

 

[spanner48]

I restore historically-interesting saws [both hand- and backsaws] from the 18th and 19th centuries.

Almost all come to me with various forms of oxidation on the blade. By far the best/kindest way to remove this is careful surface 'planing' with a VERY sharp chisel – ty[ically 3/4" or 1". Of which I have four:

• Two modern Robt Sorby bevel-edged and wood-handled;
• Two 19th century boxwood-handled bevel-edged ones: from Ward & Payne, Sheffield, and from G Harrison, Kentish Town respectively;
• I sharpen them all identically [by hand]

The diffference is very noticeable. The two older chisels are much lighter, feel more acute, lift the oxidation off more sensitively, and leave a smooth matt light grey undersurface, without digging into or scoring the steel itself. The two modern ones feel dull. I need to use more force. The underlying matt light grey layer takes longer to 'come through'. The risk of a corner 'digging in' is much higher. And the older chisels seem to retain their sharp edge much longer, and need resharpening less frequently, than their modern equivalents.

AFAIK Robt Sorby is now owned by an American private equity firm, which has outsourced significant production to the East.

Verb Sap.

 

[spanner48]

Oh dear . . . .

 

[Orraloon]

Old chisels are a very cost effective way way to get top quality chisels for not not much outlay. Sometimes a bit of work derusting and forming a new primary bevel thats good practice for keeping them sharp. Have to replace really beat up handles too.

All those on the wall were got for very low prices and some needed handles but I like saving old tools. Some can be modified to skew chisels and marking knives. Some would be over 100 years old too. I did treat myself to a boxed set of Kirschen chisels but really they are no better than the oldies and dont get used much.
Regards
John

 

[Mikegtr]

jcassidy--To answer your question about my 'Tenon Saw Problem'.
So far tried the vinegar and baking powder mix. Soaked the saws in the solution for a couple of days.
Results? Did remove some rust--more came off after sanding but still a bit rusty in parts. So next stage is to order steel wire brushes to fit electric drill--so see how that goes.

 

[schnapps95]

The two brands you mention are probably amongst the worst you can buy, they will hinder you with their massively thick edges and poor quality steel.
I can recommend the Ashley Isles bevel edge chisels, really fine edges and good quality steel and the Robert Sorby bevel edge chisels, again, fine edges and good steel.
As for sharpening get yourself a guide, the Eclipse type is probably the most versatile and cheapest, this will give you a consistently accurate edge whilst taking off the minimum of metal. Also a fine diamond stone will do to start with, no hollowing of the stone with these unlike oil stones. When your confidence and ability grows you may want to delve into waterstones or even micro films both of which are very good but stick with the guide, I've yet to meet a free hand sharpener who can repeatedly sharpen a chisel to exactly the same angle, this approach wastes steel and shortens the life of the tool, in my opinion.
Regards Mark

I have to say, I don't agree with that assertion Mark. The afore mentioned chisels have been involved in joinery for almost the same length of time as myself, having served my apprentice in the late 1950s, which is around the time when the chisels were introduced. Early in my career, I bought some. At that time they had a shamrock, as a trademark, on the top of the blade. and their adverts used to read, 'Tempered from edge to trademark.' I still have, one of the originals and it's replacement and I don't think the replacement edge is thick at all for a chisel. However, now being classed as a 'grumpy old man,' I could be wrong.

 

[Orraloon]

Looks like you had your moneys worth out of that one

 

[mark w]

I have to say, I don't agree with that assertion Mark. The afore mentioned chisels have been involved in joinery for almost the same length of time as myself, having served my apprentice in the late 1950s, which is around the time when the chisels were introduced. Early in my career, I bought some. At that time they had a shamrock, as a trademark, on the top of the blade. and their adverts used to read, 'Tempered from edge to trademark.' I still have, one of the originals and it's replacement and I don't think the replacement edge is thick at all for a chisel. However, now being classed as a 'grumpy old man,' I could be wrong.View attachment 180449View attachment 180450View attachment 180451View attachment 180452

Shnapps95 your old chisels may have been better quality, I was referring to new ones which are as I described.

 

[richarddownunder]

I'd also recommend new Ashley Iles, but I keep mine for detail work. As mentioned above, 2 or 3 will do most things. They are nice and fine, get into corners and are a pleasure to pick up and use. And, they are hand-made in the UK. I also have some of the old Marples, which are good. After many years (of hobby woodwork), I still use an Eclipse honing guide to get a repeatable 30deg angle and diamond stones, although other stones are fine (if they are kept flat, and there are videos for that on-line).

For what it's worth, I recently did a general sharpening and tool maintenance workshop at our local Repair cafe. I ground and honed some pretty chipped chisels, amongst other things. The newer ones e.g. Stanley, seemed much chunkier, I guess designed to be abused in home handyperson situations. They seemed to sharpen OK, but were not really designed for fine woodwork. So, I suppose selection depends on the end use, fine woodwork or heavy-duty e.g. you might not buy Ashley Iles bench chisels for modifying fence posts on a farm.

Cheers
Richard

 

[Mikegtr]

'Scrary Sharp' sharping vs Diamond Stones for sharping. Have you tried both methods? Which one do you prefer?

 

[Terry - Somerset]

What is it about old steel that makes it better than even respected modern brands.

I accept that, in pursuit of lower costs, the quantity of expensive elements like chromium, nickel, tungsten etc used by quality manufacturers may be compromised - the result sometimes being close to ferrous butter.

I assume metallurgy has advanced somewhat over the last century to understand how the precise addition of other elements optimises material properties, controlling the production process (timing, temperature etc), and accurately testing the output (characteristics and chemistry).

So what magic did the "old timers" use - or is it just nostalgia for the old days when skilled artisans sweated over fiery furnaces and "men were men"??

 

[Agent_zed]

I'd first ask what you intend to do with them. If you are going to bang the heck out of them cutting mortices then a big thick chisel with a handle designed to take a pounding is the way to go. If you are carefully cutting things on an heirloom piece of furniture then you probably want something else.

I have a set of 4 irwin/marples from Screwfix (about £25-30 if I recall) which I flatted the backs to a mirror finish and sharpened up and they are very sharp. Sharp enough to cut end grain softwood without crushing the grain. I've worked quite a few bits of oak without issue also. Don't need a lot of re-sharpening either. The main problem I have with them is they have handles with hammer caps so aren't the nicest to hold for fine detail work. Having said that I fitted a new door the other day and cut the hinges into the door and frame with them and you'd be hard pressed to get a better/tighter fit, and that was mostly pushing the chisel by hand.

 

[spanner48]

What is it about old steel that makes it better than even respected modern brands.

I accept that, in pursuit of lower costs, the quantity of expensive elements like chromium, nickel, tungsten etc used by quality manufacturers may be compromised - the result sometimes being close to ferrous butter.

I assume metallurgy has advanced somewhat over the last century to understand how the precise addition of other elements optimises material properties, controlling the production process (timing, temperature etc), and accurately testing the output (characteristics and chemistry).

So what magic did the "old timers" use - or is it just nostalgia for the old days when skilled artisans sweated over fiery furnaces and "men were men"??

Well, this is mostly guesswork. But I would reckon the steel composition is better and more consistent nowadays. In the US, they did a 'longditudinal' analysis of Disston [then the world's leading sawsmiths] saw steels. The manufacturing dates spread from 1865 [for the backsaw] to 1955 [for the D23].The results are shewn below.

Not much evidence of expensive alloying elements dying out: the highest-alloy is the latest D23.

So I reckon the difference is in the amount of "hot work" done on each item, as it was cooling down from casting, rolling or forging. Hot Working was the secret behind the eastern 'Wooj' steels of the early Middle Ages, and we have never been able fully to replicate it in the west. But I suspect there was a lot more being done in Sheffield in the 19th and early 20th century - when saws were made by hand, than nowadays - when they're just rolled, tempered and sold.

 

[richarddownunder]

'Scrary Sharp' sharping vs Diamond Stones for sharping. Have you tried both methods? Which one do you prefer?

Wet and dry paper on a thick glass plate is cheaper to set up and works very well, so is a good place to start. Personally, I like diamond 'stones' as they are flat, and a bit less messy. I usually then put a polish on with a fine water stone, but to be honest, I don't know how much practical difference it makes in most cases. So, both approaches work fine (as do other stones, of course).

 

[SammyQ]

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned "pre-atomic" steel and at least one manufacturer's much-publicised quest for old (think 1800-1900) anchor chain in that context? The (exploited) point was: steel with fewer contaminents, then worked by traditional heavy pounding, created a better edge-holding steel. I think the razamataz over A2 and similar steels drowned out the aforesaid "pre-atomic" 'innovation'.

 

[Jake]

That's reaching hi-fi levels of woo-woo.

 

[Orraloon]

I worked with a guy who had been involved in ship salvage and he told me that the steel from the German fleet skuttled in Scapa Flow was in high demand as it was sunk pre atomic time. To make scientific measuring equipment mostly as it had no background trace of radiation. I could see the logic in that but sharper steel is a bold claim.
Regards
John

 

[Rewby]

Personally I like a couple of Firmer chisels aswell as bevel edge in the tool roll.All are second hand.My most used chisels are the 3/4 and 1/2 Firmer.
Mine are old and belonged to an old carpenter before me.Keep an edge much longer than anything else I've owned and prefer them for general carpentry.Easy to keep sharp just by flattening the back on an oilstone.

I've always found with chisels that you just know they are the ones for you as soon as you pick them up.Theyve got to feel right in the hand.