Lyndhurst Woodworking

[Nick Gibbs]

just throwing a couple of other spanners amongst the pigeons

a) what do people think about radial arm saws as an alternative to table saws. I know kevin ley swears by his according to his book - and G&M have got a couple of dewalt ones at reasonable prices

Now there's a question. I'm not a big fan, mainly because they create so much dust and noise, and you have to dedicate a wall to them. That said if you can find a spot for them they are superb for making quick cuts to length, much more effectively than on a tablesaw, which invariably you will have to change from ripping to crosscutting mode. I'm convinced you could dispense with the tablesaw and have a bandsaw and mitresaw/radial arm saw. Do your tenoning with a router, either on a router table, Woodrat, or with a jig like the new budget Leigh FMT what I tested the other day. Or with your bandsaw if it's well set up.

 

[wizer]

I can't comment on RAS other than they certainly aren't as versatile as a TS.

The Jet JTS-10 came straight out of the Early Learning catalogue and re branded from Fisher Price. I'm not kidding, it looks like a toy.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

Thinking about it, for tenoning we'd use the Wealden tenon cutter, which looks like a mini-cutterblock and is superb. We mentioned it last issue, and will be testing it in the next issue. Could be a tool for the next decade!

 

[Mattty]

Thinking about it, for tenoning we'd use the Wealden tenon cutter, which looks like a mini-cutterblock and is superb. We mentioned it last issue, and will be testing it in the next issue. Could be a tool for the next decade!

To fit an RAS?

 

[Nick Gibbs]

If the RAS can be converted into an overhead router and has a 1/2in chuck I don't see why not. Could be interesting, but perhaps not recommended. You'd need to check with Wealden. We'll give it a go!

 

[RogerS]

And wont Paypal play ball?

Falls over in a heap laughing. Since when did PayPal care about customer service or morality?

Rob..thanks for the heads-up re third party refunds.

 

[jimi43]

Just being a little boring and going back to the original thread which is REALLY interesting....

I would like to say how amazed I am that small businesses can go to the wall only for the director to pop back up doing exactly the same thing until the next time - each time hurting customers...

I fail to see how trading standards and legislation allows for this. I have seen it in my business relationships and it appalls me.

Regarding bandsaws, table saws and radial arm saws...they all do what they do better than what the others do.....

What is amazing is that, within limits....they all perform at least one step up price-wise..if you put quality blades on them replacing the rubbish that usually comes with them.

I have all of them and I wouldn't be without any of them now....but none of them replace hand tools.

Jim

 

[OPJ]

Oh to find a solution to that dilemma. Bandsaw or tablesaw?

If you've got the space for both then, it comes down to what sort of work you do. Pete, if you're primarily in to 'turning then, go for a bigger bandsaw. In which case, you may not even need a table saw...

That's how I've been trying to work the last couple of years, without a table saw. But, I've since realised that if I want to have a crack at making furniture full-time then I'm going to need a way to accurately rip sheet materials down efficiently. I just cannot do that with a circular saw or router (even with a jig) for anything other than the initial cuts which break a large sheet down in to sizes I can handle alone. It still takes too long, which is why I'm considering a table saw - something like the Record TS200, as I really don't I could fit anything larger inside.

Saying that, I'd also like a much bigger bandsaw one day for cutting veneers! But, it's not as essential for me, making furniture.

Radial arm saws frighten me. I've worked with a couple of those 'lightweight' DeWalt saws and they don't like to cut anything larger than 2"x1" pine! If you were desperate for an RAS, I would only suggest a large Wadkin or, at the very least, one of the large DeWalt saws (they look totally different to the cheap green-now-yellow ones). By comparison, I believe that SCMSs are much safer, even though many of the larger ones aren't always repeatedly accurate.

But, most of your finish cross-cutting could probably be done on a table saw in the workshop. Or, with a hand-held circular saw (I plan to get rid of my Bosch to make room for a TS).

Just my views but, I hope they help.

By the way, those tenon cutters are awesome!

 

[kityuser]

And wont Paypal play ball?

Falls over in a heap laughing. Since when did PayPal care about customer service or morality?

Rob..thanks for the heads-up re third party refunds.

Rob?????

:?

Steve

 

[Vormulac]

b) with regard to table saws whats the opinion on the Jet JTS 10 - from where i'm standing it looks like a TS200 withou the extension and sliding table - which features i'd probably remove anyway - and its a lot cheaper.

I bought the Jet JTS-10 a few years ago and have barely used it, I bought it with a whole load of other kit that I got when I fitted out my workshop. It's cheap and nasty and I regret enormously not spending that extra £180 or whatever it was on getting a better bandsaw instead. I daresay the JTS-10 would function to requirements if I spent a whole lot of money replacing the attrocious 'fence' and the worse than useless mitre gauge and the flimsy pressed sheet table extensions, but to be honest, life is too short and my funds insufficient. I was unable to sell it on so I'll probably hang on to it for doing small jobs when I can't be bothered to get the EZ rails out. For the last two years it's been doing sterling work as a table in the corner that I dump stuff on top of.

*Not* recommended.

 

[RogerS]

And wont Paypal play ball?

Falls over in a heap laughing. Since when did PayPal care about customer service or morality?

Rob..thanks for the heads-up re third party refunds.

Rob?????

:?

Steve

Opps..sorry, Mike

 

[TheTiddles]

That guy was only sorry because he got caught, he's fraudulent and only got away with is as he went bust soon afterwards. Let's hope something happens to him to repay his great service

Aidan

 

[MikeG.]

just throwing a couple of other spanners amongst the pigeons

a) what do people think about radial arm saws as an alternative to table saws. I know kevin ley swears by his according to his book - and G&M have got a couple of dewalt ones at reasonable prices

That said if you can find a spot for them they are superb for making quick cuts to length, much more effectively than on a tablesaw, which invariably you will have to change from ripping to crosscutting mode. I'm convinced you could dispense with the tablesaw and have a bandsaw and mitresaw/radial arm saw. Do your tenoning with a router,.

I have ignored this thread due to the title............but titles are so often misleading!

I'm with Nick on this.......except for one thing. I do all my tenons with the RAS. The beauty of the RAS is the simplicity of setting up stops to do repeatable cuts to length, and the same thing applies to cuts only partially through the wood, such as tenons. Raise the blade above the bed, set up a stop to cut the shoulders, then just do a series of passes across the grain until you have remove all the waste. The accuracy of this method is determined by the accuracy of your thicknessing, however.

I've always had a RAS, inherited with the first house I bought, and I use it all the time. Olly, it will manage easily more than 2x1!!! It will easily and accurately cut 12x2. The dust is easily collected.

The only caution I would add about the RAS is don't, whatever you do, attempt to turn it at right angles and use it to rip. It is so utterly ridiculously dangerous at that.....it should be banned!

Mike

 

[OPJ]

I'm with Nick on this.......except for one thing. I do all my tenons with the RAS. The beauty of the RAS is the simplicity of setting up stops to do repeatable cuts to length, and the same thing applies to cuts only partially through the wood, such as tenons. Raise the blade above the bed, set up a stop to cut the shoulders, then just do a series of passes across the grain until you have remove all the waste. The accuracy of this method is determined by the accuracy of your thicknessing, however.

I've always had a RAS, inherited with the first house I bought, and I use it all the time. Olly, it will manage easily more than 2x1!!! It will easily and accurately cut 12x2. The dust is easily collected.

The only caution I would add about the RAS is don't, whatever you do, attempt to turn it at right angles and use it to rip. It is so utterly ridiculously dangerous at that.....it should be banned!

Mike

Nick is right that you can do away with a table saw if you're only working with solid timber... It's only when you want to be able to cut sheet materials efficiently that you begin to realise what you're missing. I doubt that's something a circular saw and guide rail/saw board combo. would solve either, as you need to reset your guide for repetition cuts - where as, with a table saw, you just leave the fence set and continue.

With radial arm saws, yes, they are capable of cutting up to 4in. thick (depending on the model of your saw). However, I've never found these saws to be as smooth as cross-cutting on a table saw - because they're so lightweight and stall easily if you're not careful [that's what I was getting at earlier, with the 2"x1" comment! :wink:], you often have to approach the cut as if you're chopping it with a mallet and chisel - tap-tap-tap-tap-tap... If the blade catches a large knot or bit of tricky grain then, BANG!, it's wedged itself in the wood! :x Once you've managed to free it (with the power off!) you then need to check it all over for square.

I've always thought this is something which could be solved by fitting a bigger weight at the other end of the saw, though.

I won't argue with you about dust extraction - at least, the stuff you can see can be collected at source with reasonable efficiency...! :wink:

 

[big soft moose]

Nick is right that you can do away with a table saw if you're only working with solid timber... It's only when you want to be able to cut sheet materials efficiently that you begin to realise what you're missing. I doubt that's something a circular saw and guide rail/saw board combo. would solve either, as you need to reset your guide for repetition cuts - where as, with a table saw, you just leave the fence set and continue.

and that in a nutshell is why i'm looking at getting a tablesaw - a lot if not most of what i do is with sheet material - ply, mdf . veneered mdf etc

currently i'm cutting them with the dewalt plunge saw and rail (which belongs to work) but i am not happy with the time it takes to set up each cut , nor with the ammount of chipping that results from the plunge through

I have reluctantly concluded that i dont have space in the shop for a big lump of cast iron like the startrite tilt arbour i was looking at so i'm currently lookning at a baby saw like the jts10 or the axi TS200.

I have also decided against the RAS as i dont have room for that and a table saw so i would need to use it to rip ( i had thought it would be okay in that mode as thats what kevin ley recomends - but i defer to nick's greater knowledge and experience)

 

[wizer]

there is also the excalibur range and also Blister is selling his Delta contractor's saw.

 

[Nick Gibbs]

and that in a nutshell is why i'm looking at getting a tablesaw - a lot if not most of what i do is with sheet material - ply, mdf . veneered mdf etc

That's a very interesting proposition. What do you buy if you have a relatively small workshop (sorry I'm only guessing that), but want to work with sheet materials more than solid wood? The important thing is to look at the rip fence and table extensions. It might be a case of taking something quite small, fixing it to a very heavy base (on wheels), with extension tables to the right and back (and possibly left) that you can easily fold away. A mitre fence is possibly less important, and will get in the way. Do your tenoning etc... with a router??

Most pros choose top of the range tablesaws to cut up large panels, whether they are sheet materials or frame-and-panel. That's a completely different spec to those wanting to cut joints on a tablesaw. The trouble is putting such a tablesaw into a relatively small workshop. Very interesting. Customisation may be your solution.

Apologies if I've assumed you have a small workshop when really you work in a double garage!!! If that's the case all bets are off.

Nick

 

[big soft moose]

and that in a nutshell is why i'm looking at getting a tablesaw - a lot if not most of what i do is with sheet material - ply, mdf . veneered mdf etc

That's a very interesting proposition. What do you buy if you have a relatively small workshop (sorry I'm only guessing that), but want to work with sheet materials more than solid wood? The important thing is to look at the rip fence and table extensions. It might be a case of taking something quite small, fixing it to a very heavy base (on wheels), with extension tables to the right and back (and possibly left) that you can easily fold away. A mitre fence is possibly less important, and will get in the way. Do your tenoning etc... with a router??

Most pros choose top of the range tablesaws to cut up large panels, whether they are sheet materials or frame-and-panel. That's a completely different spec to those wanting to cut joints on a tablesaw. The trouble is putting such a tablesaw into a relatively small workshop. Very interesting. Customisation may be your solution.

Apologies if I've assumed you have a small workshop when really you work in a double garage!!! If that's the case all bets are off.

Nick

no you're right nick - i'm in a single car garage and space is at a serious premium - it either justifies its place or it doesnt come in (except for swimbos bike which keeps coming in uninvited )

my plan is to fix the saw on a stand at the end of the hand tools bench with its table at the same height (and without its extension tables or slider) with the blade orientation being along the bench - fence away from the front - at the otherside (behind the blade) will be the router table.

so that in use the bench will become the infeed and the router table with its cutter dropped and fence pushed back will become the outfeed (like wise the saw will be an infeed for the router)

to cover the ocasional eventuallity when i want to cut something that cant be cut in that arrangement the saw stand (and the router for that matter) will be on locking castors so that it can be manuvered into the centre of the shop if i need more room arround it.

This plan is why i'm considering the JTS 10 despite vorms comments - as i wont be using the crappy extension tables and i'm likely to remake the fences if they dont measure up - all i really need is a compact saw table with a blade that sits at 90 deg to the table and is tiltable for the rare ocasions i want to cut at 45 deg etc.

on the rare occasions that i tenon - i'd probably use my little rexon bandsaw and/or a hand held tennon saw - or my morticer - I seem to be the only person who cuts tennons with a morticer but it works okay for me.

 

[promhandicam]

That's a very interesting proposition. What do you buy if you have a relatively small workshop (sorry I'm only guessing that), but want to work with sheet materials more than solid wood? . . .

Simple - a Festool TS55 and guide rail - it is what they are made for.

Steve

 

[Nick Gibbs]

my plan is to fix the saw on a stand at the end of the hand tools bench with its table at the same height (and without its extension tables or slider) with the blade orientation being along the bench - fence away from the front - at the otherside (behind the blade) will be the router table.

so that in use the bench will become the infeed and the router table with its cutter dropped and fence pushed back will become the outfeed (like wise the saw will be an infeed for the router)

This sounds fascinating. I'd love to come and see the setup. To that end a small cast iron table saw may well be your best bet as the core. I don't know the Jet well, but it could easily be ideal. Email me and perhaps we could set up a meeting.

Cheers

Nick