Lots of hot air

[Jacob]

Thanks Jacob. I do worry and I do what I can as much as possible in terms of recycling, adjusting my buying habits as well as many other things.

Recycling is just a detail part of the bigger picture. In terms of buying, going vegetarian/vegan seems to be the single most effective thing to do. Haven't done it myself yet! Have eased off though, for health reasons - much less meat than we used to have

My main point is i just don't believe we can influence as much as we think we can.

You are probably right but there seems to be no alternative other than to try. We know how it could be done in theory, just as we now know how we brought it about in the first place.

 

[Jacob]

.....
Lots of intriguing "alternative" Science out there, but you won't find it in the Guardian.

One good reason for reading the Guardian then!

The climate is quite possibly about to do some very alarming things, but also possibly not what people are telling you it is going to do.

Quite possibly

Hotter is better for all plants and animals

No it isn't and eventually kills everything as it rises

cold kills everything.

Yes - almost. Some stuff seems to survive at very low temps. Things are preserved in the cold, which has a bottom limit (-273ºC), but there is no top limit to high temperatures

We are overdue for the end of our current interglacial, so what could possibly go wrong?

Arguably, the only bit of good news about the whole issue, is that we just may be able control what happens next. It's even argued that the holocene is a result of human activity itself. It coincides with the beginning of agriculture. Maybe we created it unknowingly and could conserve it.

 

[Spectric]

There will be a guest speaker at the summit in Glasgow, fella by the name of Thanos, rumour has it he has a idea that might help

The thing is that we know what needs to be done but it is the actual doing which is not happening, maybe because some people believe that at some point technology will catch up and give us a solution that will not impose such a great change on everyone but how long do you wait?

Trainee neophyte has the solution, our freedoms need to be curbed so we cannot be wasteful with resources, breed like rabbits or manufacture pointless objects just for the wealthy.

What do you think a being from another part of the universe would have to say about the human race if they passed by, it would be the same outcome that AI will also conclude and that is pointless, we are in reality not much more than a bacteria infesting planet earth, we take everything and give nothing, and unlike probably every other life form we are not even food for anything else.

 

[Rorschach]

unlike probably every other life form we are not even food for anything else.

Of course we are, there is life eating bits of you right now as you sit there, and a huge colony of microorganisms in your gut that are only alive because of you.

So what do we do, start shooting people? Starve them to death? (we are already pretty good at letting that happen needlessly). Or do we just make life so miserable we all long for death?

 

[Jacob]

The thing is that we know what needs to be done but it is the actual doing which is not happening, maybe because some people believe that at some point technology will catch up and give us a solution that will not impose such a great change on everyone .........

Yes that is the big illusion.

Trainee neophyte has the solution, our freedoms need to be curbed so we cannot be wasteful with resources, breed like rabbits or manufacture pointless objects just for the wealthy.

Sounds a bit marxist for TN?
He's into Science Fiction too but may be getting it confused with the real thing.

..........., and unlike probably every other life form we are not even food for anything else.

They are lining up as we speak -slugs, worms, bacteria, crows, vultures, dogs (including your favourite pet), wolves and a whole army of carrion eaters. A big free barbecue if they are lucky. Yum yum!

 

[Terry - Somerset]

It seems humanity has already made progress. Five years ago their was something of a balance between those who thought climate change was fake news and those who think it a real threat.

There is an increasing consensus that CC is real and caused by us (homo sapiens). The difference seems now to be between those who think nothing can be done and those who believe we should try to do something (however futile it may ultimately be).

Do nothing increases the probability of thoroughly unpleasant outcomes - war, famine, death, rising sea levels, mass climate refugees etc etc. We could endlessly debate which outcome is the most likely.

The alternative is to try and do something. There are challenges and uncertainties, but the outcome is probably better than do nothing - and unlikely to be worse.

Some actions will cause more pain than others - another potentially endless debate - but may include birth control, cover the country with wind farms, the coasts with tidal energy systems, ban flying, tax carbon use not income etc etc.

The status quo will not be maintained. Taxes may need to be increased, legislation implemented, and funding of other public expenditure reduced. What covid has demonstrated is that large shifts in behaviours and spending are feasible. It is just a question of priorities.

Personally I would prefer to leave a world in which my children and grandchildren can live secure, comfortable, fed, watered, and free to pursue whatever life goals they may have.

 

[Rorschach]

Good timing, just spotted this on twitter.

 

[D_W]

The thing is that we know what needs to be done but it is the actual doing which is not happening, maybe because some people believe that at some point technology will catch up and give us a solution that will not impose such a great change on everyone but how long do you wait?

Trainee neophyte has the solution, our freedoms need to be curbed so we cannot be wasteful with resources, breed like rabbits or manufacture pointless objects just for the wealthy.

What do you think a being from another part of the universe would have to say about the human race if they passed by, it would be the same outcome that AI will also conclude and that is pointless, we are in reality not much more than a bacteria infesting planet earth, we take everything and give nothing, and unlike probably every other life form we are not even food for anything else.

The "What would someone else think" is an artifact we make for ourselves. Sort of a social anxiety trigger up in front of the class in our underwear dream kind of thing. That's not the kind of thing we should be focused on because it leads to trying to please hypotheticals.

We're food for the same things as other apex predators. But we have the advantage over other apex predators...The ability to build a situation into odds in our favor before acting. When it becomes our best interest to act in our favor a different way, we'll do it.

 

[Valhalla]

The 'net zero' target that this government is pinning their future on is absolutely and unequivocally doomed to failure. The move to all electric vehicles is not the answer and will not happen whilst the cost of puchasing one is 50% more than an equivalent fossil fuel guzzling version.

Forcing home owners to remove all gas/oil/log burning devices will cause mayhem especially for the poorer people in society. Ground source heat pumps are way too expensive and require lots of pipework to work at their optimum levels.

This government (and the rest of the world for that matter) should be looking at ways of making electricity as cheap to produce as possible since everything (if you believe the propaganda in the dailies) will be run by it.

Also think about what happens when you don't have a choice about which fuel you use - what do you think will happen to the price of electricity? Having no choice will be another form of control imposed on the populus by the government.... the same applies to the withdrawal of cash as a means of transaction - cash is king - digital money is another control mechanism that will be used to the detriment of the public all over the world - you can rest assured that our government will extract every last penny from you by way of taxes when cash is gone.

If the UK could even get close to zero carbon - do you think it would make one iota of difference to the global carbon content being spewed into the atmosphere?
.....No it won't.....not while you have countries like China, USA, Russia and India (not to mention all the other industrialised nations in the world). I saw in the news China is planning on generating another 247GW of power all from coal fired power stations.....

Also factor in the burning and deforestation of vast regions of the Amazon and other tropical areas around the globe. So if the UK government think all of the pain the public will suffer will actually make any difference to the carbon content of the atmosphere - they are barking.....

You have also got to take into account the exponential rise in the number of people living on the planet - all want want space to live and resources to satisfy their needs which leads to more and more of the planet being covered in concrete and thereby further reducing the stuff that actually absorbs carbon, the more flood plains get built on the less natural ground there is to absorb rainfall......and so it goes on

The only way, in my very humble opinion, is for all governments' to wake up and start realising that the reduction of the number of people on the planet is the only true solution. I think that if this does not happen, eventually there will be a truly global war - far more horrific than any that has gone before......and what will that war will be over? - WATER. Those countries with vast reserves will protect it until their dying breaths.....

Other things to consider are: has the earth's temperature ever increased by 1.5C in any geological period in the past (before the mid 1800s - when records began to be collated) - don't forget we had an ice age 20k yrs ago - so the earth's temperature must have increased at some point and it survived.

How much of global warming is attributed to the human race in comparison to a possibly natural phase of the earth's evolution?

Don't forget that this planet was a heaving mass of molten rock and volcanoes that would have spewed billions upon billions of tons of carbon into the atmosphere yet somehow, somewhere life began and prevailed.......

Is there a hidden agenda behind all of this? There is a lot of money at stake here with 'planet saving' strategies and the attendant manufacturing boom to counter the temperature rise.

What I'm hearing is a huge deluge of state supported propaganda - with every (what might be a nutural - fires in Greece, floods etc) occurence being caused by global warming.....

I could go on - but I've got RSI typing this lot..............this subject is so vast that a few paragraphs just will not even scratch the surface

 

[Jacob]

The 'net zero' target that this government is pinning their future on is absolutely and unequivocally doomed to failure. The move to all electric vehicles is not the answer and will not happen whilst the cost of puchasing one is 50% more than an equivalent fossil fuel guzzling version.

Forcing home owners to remove all gas/oil/log burning devices will cause mayhem especially for the poorer people in society. Ground source heat pumps are way too expensive and require lots of pipework to work at their optimum levels.

This government (and the rest of the world for that matter) should be looking at ways of making electricity as cheap to produce as possible since everything (if you believe the propaganda in the dailies) will be run by it.

Also think about what happens when you don't have a choice about which fuel you use - what do you think will happen to the price of electricity? Having no choice will be another form of control imposed on the populus by the government.... the same applies to the withdrawal of cash as a means of transaction - cash is king - digital money is another control mechanism that will be used to the detriment of the public all over the world - you can rest assured that our government will extract every last penny from you by way of taxes when cash is gone.

If the UK could even get close to zero carbon - do you think it would make one iota of difference to the global carbon content being spewed into the atmosphere?
.....No it won't.....not while you have countries like China, USA, Russia and India (not to mention all the other industrialised nations in the world). I saw in the news China is planning on generating another 247GW of power all from coal fired power stations.....

Also factor in the burning and deforestation of vast regions of the Amazon and other tropical areas around the globe. So if the UK government think all of the pain the public will suffer will actually make any difference to the carbon content of the atmosphere - they are barking.....

You have also got to take into account the exponential rise in the number of people living on the planet - all want want space to live and resources to satisfy their needs which leads to more and more of the planet being covered in concrete and thereby further reducing the stuff that actually absorbs carbon, the more flood plains get built on the less natural ground there is to absorb rainfall......and so it goes on

The only way, in my very humble opinion, is for all governments' to wake up and start realising that the reduction of the number of people on the planet is the only true solution. I think that if this does not happen, eventually there will be a truly global war - far more horrific than any that has gone before......and what will that war will be over? - WATER. Those countries with vast reserves will protect it until their dying breaths.....

Other things to consider are: has the earth's temperature ever increased by 1.5C in any geological period in the past (before the mid 1800s - when records began to be collated) - don't forget we had an ice age 20k yrs ago - so the earth's temperature must have increased at some point and it survived.

How much of global warming is attributed to the human race in comparison to a possibly natural phase of the earth's evolution?

Don't forget that this planet was a heaving mass of molten rock and volcanoes that would have spewed billions upon billions of tons of carbon into the atmosphere yet somehow, somewhere life began and prevailed.......

Is there a hidden agenda behind all of this? There is a lot of money at stake here with 'planet saving' strategies and the attendant manufacturing boom to counter the temperature rise.

What I'm hearing is a huge deluge of state supported propaganda - with every (what might be a nutural - fires in Greece, floods etc) occurence being caused by global warming.....

I could go on - but I've got RSI typing this lot..............this subject is so vast that a few paragraphs just will not even scratch the surface

You are asking a lot of questions and raising a lot of points.
Why not read some of the information coming out, find some answers instead of trying to work it all out for yourself?
https://19january2017snapshot.epa.gov/climatechange/climate-change-basic-information_.html

 

[woodieallen]

Why worry about it, nothing we can do. Technology will adapt to overcome any problems that occur, it's not a like an asteroid is going to hit the earth or anything like that, we are talking very slow changes and we don't even know the outcome. Live your life and be happy, that's what I am trying to do, just surviving day to day is hard enough, let alone worrying about the future.

Yeah, right. To hell with the children. I'm alright, Jack.

 

[woodieallen]

......or manufacture pointless objects just for the wealthy.

......

Pointless objects are not the exclusive domain of the wealthy. Take that smartphone in your pocket. The early mobile phone worked very well.

 

[Spectric]

You have also got to take into account the exponential rise in the number of people living on the planet

That is a huge problem that is like pouring more fuel onto the fire, add more people and all the issues increase. You have 1.5 billion chinese all wanting more, plus the rest of asia so demand for resources is just growing. The planets population has increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7.7 billion today, that level is not sustainable without intense farming.

Pointless objects are not the exclusive domain of the wealthy. Take that smartphone in your pocket. The early mobile phone worked very well.

I think I was looking more at the likes of the million pound car where they use a lot of resources to produce just a handful to keep prices high due to exclusivity, but yes it also applies to high value smartphones and the like, this goes back to people having to give up choice, far more efficient if just a handful of companys produce a certain product.

 

[Valhalla]

You are asking a lot of questions and raising a lot of points.
Why not read some of the information coming out, find some answers instead of trying to work it all out for yourself?
https://19january2017snapshot.epa.gov/climatechange/climate-change-basic-information_.html

That's the whole point - to raise questions and open up the debate.....

 

[Valhalla]

that level is not sustainable without intense farming.

We're already messing with nature (in GM crops) in order to improve crops and protect them from insects, drought and disease - yet still there are millions of hungry people in the world. The more we mess with nature - the bigger bite nature will take out of our backsides in the future.

 

[JSW]

We're already messing with nature (in GM crops) in order to improve crops and protect them from insects, drought and disease - yet still there are millions of hungry people in the world. The more we mess with nature - the bigger bite nature will take out of our backsides in the future.

I may be mistaken here, but I don't think @Spectric was referring to agricultural crops? Or maybe the cynic in me bought into the REAL problem the planet has.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

That's the whole point - to raise questions and open up the debate.....

That is not the point - it has all the characteristics of a delaying tactic and an unwillingness to address a well documented issue for which there is extensive science evidence..

Believing that nothing workable is feasible can be a legitimate opinion. If you are over 60 and care not for future generations it is a reasonable point of view. Just be honest about it!

The UK and other wealthy countries may be able to largely ignore climate change. We have the resources and skill base to mitigate and/or adapt to most impacts.

It needs investment and commitment to attain self sufficiency in green energy, food, and most things a modern society requires. A strategy implemented now would need to be sustained for several decades but is entirely feasible.

As a plan, it has the characteristics of individual "preppers" who believe that they can survive whilst the rest of society perishes, albeit on a national basis. When the "balloon goes up" we close the borders, hunker down, shoot all who risk our national security.

There are parallels with covid - only when images of overwhelmed Italian hospitals were broadcast was it plausible that a lockdown could be implemented. Consider the likely level of compliance were lockdown imposed (say) 6 weeks earlier with no visible evidence/narrative.

This may mean waiting until central London is under water with the barrier breached, flooding in low lying areas of the UK, imagery of survivors clinging to the last palm tree still above water on an island in the Pacific, etc etc. Then it will be an actionable emergency - just a few decades too late to have much effect.

 

[Jacob]

That's the whole point - to raise questions and open up the debate.....

Questions have been asked and the debate has been open for 2000 years Environmental Problems of the Greeks and Romans: Ecology in the Ancient Mediterranean (Ancient Society and History) (Review)
It got a big boost 1962 with Rachel Carson Silent Spring - Wikipedia
Then 1972 with the Ecologist A Blueprint for Survival - Wikipedia
The CO2 greenhouse effect has been known since 1859 Meet the woman who first identified the greenhouse effect
The just released IPCC report Sixth Assessment Report could be seen as the culmination of all this, coming at the end of the process as world-wide change arrives, loud, strong and impossible to ignore.

 

[Jacob]

Good timing, just spotted this on twitter.

View attachment 115659

Could be Johnson's Churchill moment except he hasn't got the imagination or the personality. The worst time to have an old Etonian smart-alec Billy Bunter as PM.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Trainee neophyte has the solution, our freedoms need to be curbed so we cannot be wasteful with resources, breed like rabbits or manufacture pointless objects just for the wealthy.

It was ironic at best : you are asking for a permanent dictatorial top-down government, which knows best at all times. Run by people like Boris, or even Jacob's antisemitic chum. Are you sure you understand the implications? The USSR tried that sort of thing, as did Mao, as did Pol Pot, and always with the best of intentions The WEF have said "You will own nothing, and like it", which sounds like a threat to me. Have you come across the Georgia Guidestones? Perhaps they fit in with your plans for humanity - ie almost everyone dead and a limited number of slaves caring for the needs of the inbred billionaire owner class.

This may mean waiting until central London is under water with the barrier breached, flooding in low lying areas of the UK, imagery of survivors clinging to the last palm tree still above water on an island in the Pacific, etc etc. Then it will be an actionable emergency - just a few decades too late to have much effect.

London is sinking anyway so even if sea levels don't rise, "something would need to be done". How about we fix the problems as they arise, rather than imagining the worst possible problems and then making everyone much, much poorer now, to fix any potential disaster due in the next 500 years, just in case? Oh, and that impoverishment only applies to "The West", because...? Give people like Neil Fergusson the chance to project potential disaster and they will have you paying for a Giant Meteor Defence System before you know what's hit you.

If you were cynical you might think it is a cunning plan to transfer all the wealth from the middle classes across the world to someone else. I wonder who?