Just use the blade guard!

[sometimewoodworker]

So HSE don't know the meaning of the word either.

That is not what the word "Accident" means.

There is no reason to not prefer to use the word incident, that is just as correct, but it is simply incorrect to say that it is "NOT an accident".

Accident certainly includes things that happen by pure chance, that could not have been foreseen or prevented, but the main meaning of the word is just an unintended event or consequence. The fact it was a result of carelessness does not mean it wasn't an accident.

You do seem to like digging your grammatical hole deeper and deeper, congratulations.

The source for the definitions is Merriam Webster Collegiate Definition.

You are now introducing carelessness, I haven’t mentioned it as being of significance, as a straw man.
Neither accident nor incident preclude carelessness as part of the occurrence, it isn’t important in differentiation between the two and probably is a factor in many incidents and accidents.

The important differentiator is knowingly not taking a precaution (not using blade guards) recommended (in quite strong terms) by the HSE for safety in the workplace. This makes the difference between you probably being criminally negligent in making an incident possible, and you just needing to claim on your workplace insurance because an accident happened.

The effect on the person and injured doesn’t chabut the consequences to you, the employer, will probably be drastically different.

Do please note this is only about a workplace, a home workshop is outside the remit of the HSE and rightly so. Things you do in the privacy of your man cave are your concern, maybe your significant other’s as well.

The HSE gives its own definition of the words that is somewhat different.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

It is just attached to the riving knife (which isn't easily adjusted) by a bolt. The cover is solid cast metal and just flops down onto the top. I've checked through the manual and there are no missing parts. I'm wondering whether a plastic blade guard would be better.

As @Jacob said being able to tighten the top guard on the high riving knife is a usual method of raising the guard enough to just clear the wood. My 50+ year old saw has a bolt and lever nut so it’s easy to lock the guard at any hight. However I also have a riving knife that can’t take a top guard and allows for all, cuts while not as safe as your (and my original) guard it’s never allowed a kickback.

 

[Jacob]

Hello, regarding the above post..
I intend to make a proper overhead guard for my machine.
From what I've seen member Heimlaga has made a really good design that is adjusted
via turnwheel.
It this considered a better or worse system for the "best design" one could get made or buy?
Heimlaga's taken some juicy pictures of his, if you click on the link.
Nevermind, I'll just add them here, hopefully Heimlaga won't mind
I'll let you click the link for his other pic of it.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/overhead-table-saw-blade-guard.115782/#post-1268044

Looks like a PITA to adjust!
I'd be careful - last year someone posted about a home-made "SUVA" guard which had spontaneously collapsed and shattered, with minor injuries involved. It wasn't a "SUVA" guard at all, just an imitation made with inferior materials to an inferior design, though heimlaga's looks over designed if anything!

 

[Ttrees]

I like your honesty Jacob, I don't mind if its over designed,
I see it as little effort for something so important personally.
If you won the lotto, what would you consider as an better alternative
money no object kinda thing.
I'd buy some lexan or whatever for the design, making a proper job of it
I wouldn't be so sore about coughing up the dough for some, if it had something of worth
and not a lash up just for ideas.
Thanks
Tom

 

[JohnPW]

I've just seen a Youtube video of someone using a bandsaw without the guard!

 

[TominDales]

I spent a very enjoyable 30 years in a v busy fire service even when dealing with "things that people never considered would go wrong for them"...

I've found this section fascinating as someone quite new to this forum, the videos are gut wrenching.

Quitain is spot on. Safety or HSE must come first. Otherwise all else is put at risk.
I've spend 35 years in an inherently hazardous industry, the chemical pharma sector, which apart from manufacturing explosives, most chemical plants are contained explosions. The mantra followed is ALL accidents can be prevented. Should an incident happen, a route cause analysis always finds a cause, and things that can be done to prevent a re-recurrence. As others have said, there is best practice that can be followed for all these operations that mean they can be done safely. Sometimes the safe method take longer, but in my experience, with practice its also possible to do things safely and productively. Most manufacturing these days adopts a SHEQ approach, and the evidence is, the top performing factories from a safety perspective have best qualityperformance and usually the best financial performance (comparing those under the same regulatory framework). This approach has lead to a huge reduction in accidents in the UK/EU/US of the past 30 years, even industries with a shocking history such as construction are undergoing a transformation.
There is no reason not to apply what we are taught at work to this pastime. It has hazardous equipment that needs to be operated safely.

By the way that angle grinder with chain saw head should require a licencee - when I first saw one I did a google search and someone said their friend has been killed when it kicked back and severed a neck artery.

To be devils advocate and defend some of these US videos. While they are flawed - as pointed out by others- they do help get the safety message out when 'someone' the viewer can identify with' says they made a mistake and what it cost them. If they get the message out to use a riving knife and guard that is a good service. Also just how traumatic an accident can be.

 

[pidgeonpost]

Tighten the bolt to stop it moving. Maybe you need a new nut and bolt and a few washers?

Yes, sounds like you need a washer or two, a spring-washer, or a spacer.
My saw has a nut-and-bolt arrangement, but the 'nut' is of the adjustable lever type like in the photo, so no tools required to adjust it.

You can buy them online easily enough.

eBay link

 

[alex_heney]

This not a discussion on our collective understanding of the semantics of incident or accident though, its referencing the HSE's use of the respective terms.

Right.

So according to that site, it IS an accident (as I have been saying), unless nobody gets hurt, when it is a "near miss" under the heading of "incident".

Thank you for confirming what I have been saying.

 

[TheTiddles]

Right.

So according to that site, it IS an accident (as I have been saying), unless nobody gets hurt, when it is a "near miss" under the heading of "incident".

Thank you for confirming what I have been saying.

I see selective reading is in effect.

 

[pidgeonpost]

Sometimes I wonder whether there would be less stress in the world if we spent more time at the workbench and less time at the keyboard.
Just sayin'.....

 

[Daniel2]

Sometimes I wonder whether there would be less stress in the world if we spent more time at the workbench and less time at the keyboard.
Just sayin'.....

Yes, but the forum would become very quiet.

 

[TRITON]

I get it, use your equipment how you want and no one is arguing with that but please refrain from reiterating the concept that safety guards are pointless on an open forum,

Srry, just really noticed this.
Im not saying that at all, I was saying that user complacency and having your hands close to the blade by not using push sticks were the problem, and to be honest i resent the implication.
NOWHERE HAVE I SAID THEY WERE POINTLESS.

So just tell me theres never been an accident on a table saw that had a guard fitted, Clearly you can't, so what else came into play ?, what would have been the circumstances that led to such an accident. EXACTLY what I've been reiterating from my first post.

 

[shed9]

Srry, just really noticed this.
Im not saying that at all, I was saying that user complacency and having your hands close to the blade by not using push sticks were the problem, and to be honest i resent the implication.
NOWHERE HAVE I SAID THEY WERE POINTLESS.

You have consistently downplayed safety guards from the get go and even when you realised the general consensus was against you on that you then switched to it being a non-sensical argument of you being more right than the HSE in terms of the terminology of accidents.

So just tell me theres never been an accident on a table saw that had a guard fitted, Clearly you can't, so what else came into play ?, what would have been the circumstances that led to such an accident. EXACTLY what I've been reiterating from my first post.

As already addressed, no one has claimed that blade guards prevent all accidents but how exactly does that comment fit into your previous all-caps narrative that nowhere have you said they were pointless?

 

[TRITON]

Nope thats just your argumentative take on it. Safety is the key,and thats all ive said.. I asked you to show where I said pointless and you have skirted about it.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

That seems to be the problem - It's just attached to the riving knife with a nut and bolt - the weight of it makes it rest on the surface and there are no springs / mechanisms to make it rise and fall. I've checked the manual and there are no missing parts

I was away from home when I replied before so couldn’t take pictures. These are of my original guard that has been temporarily attached to the side of my saw for pictures and the low level riving knife that I had made for it a few years ago. The knife guard with top guard attached is original to the machine.

down

locked up a little

and a bit more

the reverse side showing the adjustment set screw, this allows you to change the position of the locking lever.

the attachment to the riving knife

and both guards

 

[jcassidy]

I think the experts in the Health And Safety executive probably have a better grip on the exact definitions of 'accident' vs 'incident' than contributors to this column.
I do know in military parlance, there's no such thing as an 'accidental discharge', only 'negligent discharge', which in those units which demand high performance, will get you sh#tcanned. This is because if you have your finger on the trigger of a live weapon

 

[jcassidy]

I think the experts in the Health And Safety executive probably have a better grip on the exact definitions of 'accident' vs 'incident' than contributors to this column.
I do know in military parlance, there's no such thing as an 'accidental discharge', only 'negligent discharge', which in those units which demand high performance, will get you sh#tcanned. This is because the only reason a live weapon will fire is through operator error.

The only reason an operator will get caught in machinery is operator error. Guards and other protections are only reducing the window for operator error, and opening that window without compensatory precautions us negligent.

 

[shed9]

Nope thats just your argumentative take on it. Safety is the key,and thats all ive said.. I asked you to show where I said pointless and you have skirted about it.

I'll just leave this there and wish you well.......................

 

[sometimewoodworker]

I think the experts in the Health And Safety executive probably have a better grip on the exact definitions of 'accident' vs 'incident' than contributors to this column.

HSE have their own definition and use that definition. This is not dissimilar to definitions used in law, they are exact and often subtly or very different from general usage. Neither lawyers nor the HSE are arbiters of correct general usage of words nor do they claim to be.

The majority of people use the general usage meanings, as I have been doing, if I am using the HSE or legal meaning I will specifically say that I am.

Simply the HSE definition is different from the general usage definition.

To give an extreme example (that would never occur but could) If they were to define white as the absence of colour then their white would be everyone else’s black, both descriptions would be correct as they would have their own definition. But that would not make any difference to general usage.

 

[jcassidy]

But that would not make any difference to general usage.

Your arguments are internally inconsistent.

The subject of this thread is injuries caused by machinery, and the issue is; can these injuries be considered 'accidents'.

As such, the 'general usage' of the word 'accident' is totally irrelevant, as we are not talking in general but in specifics.