Invasion of US Capitol building

[Auldfart2010]

Where were we? Oh yeah!
Invasion of US Capitol building
Absolutely insane scenes.

I just witnessed lots of thugs and bullies seeing through red mist in a pitchforks and torches frenzy.

 

[Jacob]

Where were we? Oh yeah!
Invasion of US Capitol building
Absolutely insane scenes.

I just witnessed lots of thugs and bullies seeing through red mist in a pitchforks and torches frenzy.

Unfortunately they have a martyr for the cause. Ashli Babbitt got shot breaking through a door. Apparently she was an alt right extremist and threeper etc. Don't know if she was carrying a weapon but some of them were, with molotov cocktails and other stuff.

 

[billw]

Americans are brainwashed into believing that they are the best country in the world, whereas in reality, they fall short by so many metrics.

Same as the flag thing. Just do what you're told and be a good patriot, we're the best. Of course "best" is measured in ethnocentric terms where you're inevitably the "best" when you're benchmarking against things you chose yourselves.

I suppose it's no wonder so many people happily went along with Trump's lies. A person in a position of power repeatedly telling them stuff - it must be true!

 

[Jonm]

Before the invasion of Capitol Hill an american friend of mine who lives in the states told me about the worrying situation. Particularly the following

“In an extraordinary rebuke of President Donald Trump, all 10 living former secretaries of defense are cautioning against any move to involve the military in pursuing claims of election fraud, arguing that it would take the country into "dangerous, unlawful and unconstitutional territory."”

Basically, all the living former Secretaries of State were saying that the military should obey the constitution and not the president.

What surprises me is that none of this was reported in our main stream TV media. I tried searching the bbc website and found nothing. There were reports in the guardian and US websites.

We get the presidential primaries, campaigns etc ad nausea but nothing about the dangerous political situation developing in the USA until Capitol Hill is invaded.

The mayor of Washington called out the national guard before the rally

https://www.voanews.com/2020-usa-votes/dc-mayor-calls-national-guard-ahead-pro-trump-protests
So where were they when the invasion took place. And it was Pence who called out the National Guard after the invasion and Trump claims he did it

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...us-attack-Capitol-calls-national-healing.html
All very suspicious and worrying. Would not surprise me if Trump call off the national guard and then sent his supporters to Capitol Hill.

 

[Chris70]

I doubt Pence would implement the 25th Amendment and I thought Impeachment2 would be futile, considering only a dozen days remaining, but was heartened to learn that, should the I2 process at least begin, it would prevent this overtly racist President standing again. Is this true, I wonder?

 

[D_W]

But are you sitting in the middle? You say they're both part of the problem, but how is it that BLM protesters, who are just wanting the right to not be shot in the street because of the colour of their skin, are part of the problem?

Cheers, Vann.

Are you confusing antifa for BLM? They are two very different groups.

I walked right through the center of a BLM protest here on my way to public trans before covid and it was quiet and peaceful. I'm white as a sheet. I didn't feel the least bit unsafe and walked right past police and barriers and said the same thing "hi, I'm crossing this - that's my bus coming down the street up there". Nobody so much as batted an eye.

 

[D_W]

Unfortunately they have a martyr for the cause. Ashli Babbitt got shot breaking through a door. Apparently she was an alt right extremist and threeper etc. Don't know if she was carrying a weapon but some of them were, with molotov cocktails and other stuff.

Jacob, you know she was unarmed, it's all over the media. All or nearly all of the crowd was unarmed, and they were told in exchange at least in parts of the building that the police were, too.

The actual report of reality that another forum member said was they went to the door, they said to the police "we're going in there, and you're not stopping us" and for the most part, the police did the right thing and got out of the way.

The girl got shot because she was in an unlucky place - in front of a nervous police officer. I knew this yesterday morning because it had been relayed that she was unarmed and unluckily in a group of people who was pushing from behind.

That's the risk when you confront police in the US - they are people, and someone will get nervous, but I suspect they'll be paying a settlement. There's no need to villainize the lady, that's juvenile. She took a risk and got shot for no more than trespassing at this point.

Can you imagine if you had some labour hero in an agitated group and they got shot? You'd have a shrine for them. Take your political glasses off - everyone is human.

"unfortunately, someone got killed, so they'll be a hero". No concern for the fact that she got killed, just the threat that someone will be upset by it. pure

 

[D_W]

Same as the flag thing. Just do what you're told and be a good patriot, we're the best. Of course "best" is measured in ethnocentric terms where you're inevitably the "best" when you're benchmarking against things you chose yourselves.

I suppose it's no wonder so many people happily went along with Trump's lies. A person in a position of power repeatedly telling them stuff - it must be true!

Completely inaccurate that the whole of the country here is big on the "do what you're told and be a good patriot". The uniformity here in terms of "doing what you're told" is a lot less than most countries in the world. In the US, frankly, we're a bit surprised when other countries find level of corruption or favoritism in their governments.

We have the whole spectrum, from people who think government should be very limited to a fairly large group in academia that believes there should be one uniform government for the entire world.

 

[D_W]

People keep saying free 'at point of use' as though it's not really free. But anything 'free' is either paid for by somebody else or has some sort of cost somewhere down the line. To keep saying "yebbut it's not really free" looks like early indication of depression to me! (Talk to your doctor about it - it's free!)
It's a completely redundant comment.

It's close to free for the freeloaders. To criticize someone pointing out that the system has an actual cost is pretty dumb. That would be like me saying that my only costs for health care are copays because my employer pays for most of mine.

It's not free. Or to say that medicare is free because it is for some people after they pay a minimal premium. 2.9% of our payroll here goes to medicare. 12.4% goes to social security - that's far from free. When you're a taker instead of a payer, it's easy to believe that other peoples' money is easy. It generally leads to an overall average lower standard of living, just with more uniformity.

I just checked the GDP (size of the economy) per capita in the US vs. the UK:
$63K in the US, $43K in the UK. I guess that affords us a lot of money to waste on healthcare, but nothing is really free.

America is the place to be, Part 2
(here's a chart of disposable income from 2010 - I didn't read the article. I don't believe in "this country is better than that one" talk. I could live anywhere).

If I was going to be a free-rider on the system, though, I probably wouldn't choose rural america. As a retiree with annuity income, it's not so bad.

What does extra disposable income afford? I'm in my mid 40s, probably effectively finished with retirement savings, no debt (no mortgage) and expect to soon have two of my kids' college funded. The only concessions I've made to get to that is living in a house half as large as someone with my income typically would (1500SF on the main floor, and another 800 basement semi-furnished) and I don't buy new cars often. But I have the choice here.

The rise of incentivized health care here is starting to mean that even the rural areas (community health systems being bought by larger systems, of obvious reasons - to try to improve utilization and grab territory) have easier access to care than almost anywhere else in the world.

You can become homeless in the states and live on the street, but it generally requires refusing services or doing anything at all (as in, a lot of addicts end up there because they won't dry out to get free shelter and food and go through a program - they can usually get free food without issue, though).

 

[Woody2Shoes]

our friends had an instance of a child who has attention deficit. ... I don't know the full story of what they were telling me (I admit I wasn't fully paying attention)....

 

[D_W]

That was unintentional....but unfortunately, the kernel of truth in it is accurate! (why listen to stories about attention deficit if you're already well experienced with it?)

 

[MikeJhn]

I wonder in the fullness of time if Trump will be prosecuted for in-sighting a riot.

 

[D_W]

Probably not unless someone wants to incite another one. Once he's out, decisions have to be made to move forward, not sideways or backwards.

It looks like a capitol police officer has also died, but how is not specified. I think that's a shame - on both sides of this. I hope justice is fair on all sides (if the woman was shot wrongly in a melee, I hope that's honestly investigated with a fair and just result, and the same for the officer.

I'm outta here on the thread -I've said my piece. A lot of the oversimplified narratives you guys believe are a lot like someone over here claiming that the UK is divided into two parts:
1) royalty people who run around feeling self important living on taxpayer dole
2) everyone else trying to figure out the best way to divide their spare time between pub, soccer and watching the royalty on TV while reading tabloids

When, in fact, I know that at least some of the population has other hobbies, like flying to the US and buying a lot of clothes while they're here!!!

 

[pete seddon]

pain, prejudice, and paranoia


'' There is a discomfort in talking about the racialized nature of the riot because of the fear that good people might be marked by too broad a brush. Yet it’s clear that a river of rage and anger runs from Jim Crow America to the tiki-torch protests in Charlottesville to the mobs this week that were willing to break doors, barricades, windows and laws on the day Joe Biden was certified to take Trump’s place. Something is being snatched from them and it’s not just money or jobs or security or even the White House. ''
(Washington Post 8/1/21)

' cornerstone' speech, by Alexander H Stephens, confederacy vice president. 1861

''Our confederacy is founded upon principles in strict conformity with these laws. This stone which was rejected by the first builders "is become the chief of the corner"—the real "corner-stone"—in our new edifice. ''

''Its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. ''

excerpt from Washington Post - 8/1/21 - some characters & quotes are fictional -
''When it comes to guarding against White extremist violence, America’s so-called thin blue line becomes damn near microscopic.”

“I can see that these White people are angry,” said local D.C. resident Markus Harvie, a member of the country’s Black ethnic minority. “But why are they attacking buildings in their own community? Can’t they just kneel in protest or something? Buildings matter, too.”

''An anonymous law enforcement official tried to explain the discrepancy between why so many Black men and women have been assaulted and arrested for protesting racism, while so few White extremists were arrested on Wednesday. "Well, actually, the way we calculate things, a Black male protester is equal to three-fifths of a White male protester, " the official said. “And Black women we don’t count at all. So on balance, the math tends to balance out.”

“The French Cuban writer Anaïs Nin wrote in 1940 that ‘America is in even greater danger because of its cult of toughness, its hatred of sensitivity, and someday it may have to pay a price for this.’ ”

“This did not start with Trump. The biggest threat to White America was always the rage and violence of White America. And if the country doesn’t get a hold of itself, America’s democracy will indeed pay a heavy, heavy price. America will lose whatever remains of its soul.”


On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 at 15:01, Pete Seddon <[email protected]> wrote:

https://twitter.com/hashtag/Bloodlines?src=hashtag_click

click on 'bloodlines'.

ReplyReply to allForward

 

[D_W]

(I doubt you'd fare well if we started comparing 1860s literature from England to use against pot-stirring editorials in your own papers. Claiming that most of the group is upset because they're really there for race-related reasons is pretty dumb, but it will generate clicks - again - the pro-wrestling narrative style gimmick for both ends of the media - don't shoot the middle, because people only return if they're angry. Besides, the only thing lost is truth and accuracy).

 

[Trainee neophyte]

So the dust has had a bit of time to settle, and the left/establishment positions seems to be that:

1. Trump is now completely insane (even more than before).
2. The right are violent, insane, led by a madman, and utterly unworthy of anything other than contempt, because they attacked the very core of America
3. Trump instigated the attack personally, with his speech.
4. The administration (ie Trump personally) removed all the police in order to allow the storming of the Capitol Building.
5. The election was free and fair, and there is no evidence, nor has there ever been any evidence, of a rigged election. See point 1. Any evidence to the contrary is trifling and irrelevant and couldn't have had any significant effect, therefore see point 1.

I'm sure there is more but that will do to be going on with. Has anyone on here actually seen the counter narratives? They are out there, but if you stick with the BBC or the Guardian you aren't going to see the other side of the story. As I mentioned several pages back, reality is no longer relevant - it's all about the narrative.

So, first up - evidence that the violence was perpetrated by BLM /Antifa rent-a-mob: FALSE FLAG CONFIRMED: . Is it true? I don't know, but it is interesting nonetheless. I also see that the internet is awash with "factchecked" refutations that Antifa or BLM were there - the lady do'st protest too much?

Next up - Trump called for the attack during his speech . Well, I tried reading through the transcript of his speech, looking for an explicit call to arms , but it was pretty turgid stuff so I gave up before I found anything. Perhaps you can do better (attention deficit disorder?): Donald Trump Speech "Save America" Rally Transcript January 6 - Rev

I did find this specific quote from later on:

"I know your pain, I know you’re hurt. We had an election that was stolen from us, it was a landslide election and everyone knows it especially the other side.

"But you have to go home now, we have to have peace, we have to have law and order, we have to respect our great people in law and order. We don't want anybody hurt."

I have no knowledge/opinion regarding who set the policing levels at the Capitol Building - perhaps someone else does. The real question is - who benefits most from a violent invasion of government? You could make arguments for either side, which means either side might have been responsible, plus the conspiracy theory nutty idea that non-political others actually benefit most from political chaos (that would be the Color Revolution idea).

Now, the real crux of all this is whether or not the election was fraudulent. As I understand it there is plenty of evidence, but the various courts have refused to actually look at it. All the media say that there is no evidence, because the courts threw it all out, but the courts cleverly avoided any consideration of actual evidence, and refused the various claims on procedural grounds. Anyhoo, as they say in Canada, here is some "evidence", just in case you wanted to see what the the other lot have got their knickers in a twist about.

Election 2020 Was Rigged: The Evidence - Geller Report News
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...es-how-the-democrats-rigged-the-2020-electionI won't post any more - lefties will ignore it because it is obviously right wing and therefore insane, and anyone who actually has an interest can rummage the internet on their own. My own position is that I would never trust an electronic voting machine, no matter how many people assured me it was honest and true. Paper votes or it never happened.

In conclusion, for anyone who's eyes haven't glazed over already; the right seem to think that the election was stolen, but more importantly that the checks and balances to protect democracy have failed to give them a voice. In other words, they are disenfranchised. The Second Amendment allows lots of guns for exactly this reason (according to all the right wingers, that is). If I was a democrat I would be wearing squeaky shoes these days. If I was an evil manipulator trying to cause maximum chaos and split the communities, I probably wouldn't have done much differently.

It's almost as if someone truly wants different sections of Americans at each other's throats. Who would benefit from that?

 

[Spectric]

I think this shows just how un united the states have become, they are I believe struggling to find there new position in a changing world where sheer miltary power is no longer a solution. This is also reflected in Europe where the left and right are always playing tug of war.

 

[Jacob]

........ If I was an evil manipulator trying to cause maximum chaos and split the communities, I probably wouldn't have done much differently.

It's almost as if someone truly wants different sections of Americans at each other's throats. Who would benefit from that?

Who else but the Trump family? And their enablers of course; supporters with power and money.
Not the fringe Qanon nutters, hairy chaps with guns and confederate flags and the likes - they are political cannon fodder, possibly literal cannon fodder if things get worse.
I can't see any other likely contenders.

 

[Jake]

It looks like a capitol police officer has also died, but how is not specified.

Smashed on the head multiple times with a fire extinguisher.

 

[D_W]

Smashed on the head multiple times with a fire extinguisher.

That's death penalty stuff here.