Invasion of US Capitol building

[Woody2Shoes]

It wouldn't surprise me.

I think that Trump is probably more vulnerable to an Iranian drone attack....

 

[Woody2Shoes]

The idea that Stalin was a socialist is also laughable.
Sanders sounds like a middle of the road democratic socialist in the European manner. Not too dogmatic/ideological/radical but humanitarian and pragmatic.
USA problems might be over when they finally get a black/latino/native american majority in government.

There is a similarity between Trump and Stalin in that they both specialised in anti-truth - was it Stalin (or someone on the internet) who said that if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth...

 

[D_W]

The idea that Stalin was a socialist is also laughable.
Sanders sounds like a middle of the road democratic socialist in the European manner. Not too dogmatic/ideological/radical but humanitarian and pragmatic.
USA problems might be over when they finally get a black/latino/native american majority in government.

your posts are always good for humor, jacob. Bernie is a lot like the idealists on your side of the water - they are full of platitudes and short of ever getting thing done in their careers. When they are made head of something, they freeze.

Let's be realistic about what will happen in the states. Biden is officially elected now, certified. He will be inaugurated on time, and Trump will leave. If he doesn't, he will assisted in moving if that's a challenge.

Sanders is a moron who stared straight ahead and gave fallacies and platitudes when challenged. Ever see someone who responds in a debate by looking away from you and talking? It's clear why people do that.

We don't need the far other side, either - the "free market moral legislators" given that the united states is already fairly socialist (if you don't have money, you get free food, free housing, free medical - you just have to be willing to be out of money to get that and then go through filing for the benefits).

One of the comical things over here is when people say we don't want to be socialist, and you start listing programs:
* social security
* unemployment
* disability
* medicare
* medicaid
* housing assistance
* income -limited health care premiums (you get limited service options, but realistically, the limited service avenues are more expedient than most european health care systems - and still more expensive - just not to the user)
* food assistance
* job training assistance
* university subsidies for probably more than half of college students
* state health and free child's health benefits for low income
* free phones
* subsidization of food production (cheaper here probably than anywhere else in the world)

Of course, being a middle of the road fence sitter, when I hear a conservative talk about how we want to be capitalist and free market, and they're over 65, I ask which of the above benefits they'd like to give up.

If you're going to be intellectually honest, you can't really have political friends.

 

[doctor Bob]

Seems to me that the general public won't accept a vote these days unless there is a clear margin.

 

[D_W]

Comparisons to the US political situation and Stalin or Hitler are absolute stupidity, by the way. Maybe you can entertain yourself with that kind of nonsense, but the government here is still functioning as normal, and despite the noise, so are the elections.

The people involved in the protests will probably be rewarded by getting FBI profiles and difficulty flying or passing job-related background checks.

It's not as if they're just playing on jungle gyms and there are no consequences.

 

[Jacob]

Seems to me that the general public won't accept a vote these days unless there is a clear margin.

Well yes, but nothing new about it. If there's nothing in it you can toss a coin. If it's an important issue a big margin is required.
This was Cameron's big stupid brexit mistake.

 

[D_W]

Seems to me that the general public won't accept a vote these days unless there is a clear margin.

There are two things you can count on, each with prior bits of truth:
* democrats will complain about the electoral college and describe the president elected based on that setup as illegitimate
* republicans will elect voter fraud

(chicago and some other areas were rife with voter fraud many decades ago - I doubt voter fraud exists now in more than small pockets, and not bigger than legitimate errors and mistakes in vote counting)

90% of the people in the US, at least, are perfectly satisfied with the election results, even if they're not happy. Sorry if that doesn't make good TV.

 

[doctor Bob]

Well yes, but nothing new about it. If there's nothing in it you can toss a coin. If it's an important issue a big margin is required.
This was Cameron's big stupid brexit mistake.

So does that mean that you think the US election is too close to give a winner. Should it be 60%+

 

[Awac]

I just can't stop thinking Donald J Targaryen, the Mad king running around the White house screaming "Burn them all"....maybe Mike Pence will turn out to be the King-slayer.....LOL.

 

[Jacob]

So does that mean that you think the US election is too close to give a winner. Should it be 60%+

It was pretty conclusive US election results 2020: Joe Biden's defeat of Donald Trump
I see your point.
In reality the USA election isn't a major change in the constitution or anything - it's routine in spite of appearances to the contrary, with a fixed timetable to be repeated
But Brexit represented a huge shift for ourselves, Europe and a whole generation on how we live, with major changes, a one off, never to be repeated, possibly irreversible

 

[D_W]

Have to respectfully disagree with you. Whilst personally I couldn't agree with them in a million years, if you are one of the 47% of republicans (according to a you.gov poll today) that believes the steal is real, then you ARE fighting for civil rights and democracy. IF I truly believed, and had been told again and again, that one political party or the other was attempting, by falsifying results, to essentially take over my country, I'd conceivably feel that I would be not only justified, but compelled to stop them in whatever way I could.

I'm not saying that individuals are not responsable for their actions, just that those actions are based on percieved truth, as a basis for personal morality.

Here's how I see it sitting as a disagreeable independent. There are a few instances of voter fraud. They are numbers in the thousands. The number of votes is probably over 100 million. They inconsequential noise.

There is no court provable significant voter fraud, and if you can't prove it in court, it's not actionable.

I would bet in private that the vast majority of republicans believe that there is some voter fraud and without it biden won. Some part of the small group of noisemakers isn't sharp enough to understand that there is a difference between:
* yes there is some voter fraud and double voting (there always has been), but it's not enough to make a meaningful difference
* same as above, but it's election changing

I have had actual conversations with some people who are in the second bullet point - I ask them "do you think any republicans voted twice? I think you could find some, have you looked for them, too? And, if the people who say they know lots about fraud are one or two, and they can't bring anything to court, then do you believe they really have something? The others who tell a story and go away are likely paid by someone, and it could be anyone - do you think it's beyond the scope of an antifa funder or enthusiast to pay someone to give that narrative from the republican side?"

If I really wanted some traction from the right wing side, I'd infiltrate antifa and pay some people to say really stupid outlandish things. That's far more damaging than beating your own drum.

I think I will be proven right in the end, that this is all noise, biden will be President, and MAGA will become a fading "brand" filled with people looking for UFOs and elvis.

 

[D_W]

They're forced to from a young age. I believe every school has a ceremony everyday pledging allegiance to the flag. The flag is sacred symbol in the US.

I'm not American so correct me if I'm wrong.

I think you guys are off track about both sides of the aisle worshipping the flag. You should actually live here. Some part of the conservative side uses the flag as a figurative thing (a sign of a 1700s constitutional ideal). I haven't met any democrats except some centrists who served in the military who so much as even own a flag that they could fly. We note that you guys in the UK are more likely to have one of your flags on clothes or sports uniforms.

The pledge is said in schools, but it's not compulsory. I have no clue where it came from, but probably somewhere in the 1920s as some part of some act. Kids are at home here - I haven't heard the pledge in teleschool, which I note because I would suggest that it would be weird seeming -I remember saying the pledge when I was a kid. There were conscientious objectors even in my school (jehovahs' witnesses were not permitted to recite it). I don't remember anything remotely close to discipline for them (there were others, too).

It's probably convenient to show the whole flag thing on TV ("look at the MAGAs shouting USA USA!!"). Areas that have a large minority population sometimes ban clothing with stars and stripes on them as divisive or not inclusive.

Seeing a flag in my neighborhood of 350 houses is fairly unusual unless it's memorial day or july 4th. There are yard signs everywhere with sayings like "hate has no home here" or "however you say hello, wherever you're from, whatever language you speak at home, you're welcome here".

My neighborhood is middle class and probably a 50/50 political mix. When you get to rural areas, you may see things like rocks arranged to say "TRUMP" or buildings with american flags painted on roofs or something, but it's the minority. It was common for citizens to have a flag pole when I was a kid (70s/80s), but it no longer is. I think the reason for that is at the time, there were plenty of veterans and children of veterans alive and there was constant peddling of the threat of the soviets, etc. That stuff is all gone now. Both sides of the aisle use the chinese and russians for scary stories only when it's convenient.

 

[RobinBHM]

Comparisons to the US political situation and Stalin or Hitler are absolute stupidity, by the way

Yes of course, however making comparisons of right wing populism and facism are quite useful

Populism

• division of society into two camps, “the people” and “the elites”
• a proud antagonism toward intellectuals
• the rejection of culture and knowledge in favor of instinct
• the promotion of polarizing views
• demonization of one’s opponent
• a contempt for judiciary, military, and political powers
• a strong intolerance of free press

Facism

• the cult of tradition and the past, of action over thought, of machismo
• the fear of difference
• the appeal to a frustrated middle class
• the obsession with international conspiracies
• an exaggeration of the power of enemies
• the demonization of “rotten” parliamentary governments
• the use of simple, impoverished language
• the glorification of the people as a monolith holding common views

“populism combines low level actual violence with high level rhetorical violence,” applying it to “an authoritarian way of understanding democracy.” In that is another important distinction between fascism and populism: “fascism is never a democracy, while populism undermines democracy, but doesn’t remove it.


Populism may not be facism, but it's still very dangerous.

Populism is the rule of mob, it is not democracy.

Populism is the "will of the people"..... I wonder where we might've heard that in the UK

 

[RobinBHM]

There are a few instances of voter fraud. They are numbers in the thousands. The number of votes is probably over 100 million. They inconsequential noise

Sadly a common method of conspiracy theories takes an inconsequential percentage and conflates it to give it equivalence to the truth.

Trump has been using it for "voter fraud", but we see the same with climate change and of course with Covid.

 

[Billy_wizz]

An exceptionally silly remark!
Had a cataract op on Monday courtesy of the NHS. Americans please note this was entirely free of charge including several cups of tea and some digestive biscuits! They would have picked me up and taken me back home if needed, also free.
I can't see any connection at all with flag worship. Would waving the St George flag have helped me see? Do American flag wavers get free medical care, or any benefit at all for that matter?
Incidentally, having mentioned it I must say the result was amazing and I can now see better than I have for the last 50 years. Even the colours are better. Sight with the other eye has a yellowish tinge - possibly nicotine stains from the bad old days.
Whom should I thank - St George or Aneurin Bevan?

Totally free so you have never worked and never paid any tax?

 

[Jacob]

Totally free so you have never worked and never paid any tax?

Yes totally free, no payment asked for, no credit card demanded, no insurance documents, no prior estimate, no questions asked - even if I'd never worked or paid tax.
How the system is paid for is entirely separate, which I can see causes confusion!

 

[billw]

I think you guys are off track about both sides of the aisle worshipping the flag. You should actually live here. Some part of the conservative side uses the flag as a figurative thing (a sign of a 1700s constitutional ideal). I haven't met any democrats except some centrists who served in the military who so much as even own a flag that they could fly. We note that you guys in the UK are more likely to have one of your flags on clothes or sports uniforms.

The pledge is said in schools, but it's not compulsory. I have no clue where it came from, but probably somewhere in the 1920s as some part of some act. Kids are at home here - I haven't heard the pledge in teleschool, which I note because I would suggest that it would be weird seeming -I remember saying the pledge when I was a kid. There were conscientious objectors even in my school (jehovahs' witnesses were not permitted to recite it). I don't remember anything remotely close to discipline for them (there were others, too).

It's probably convenient to show the whole flag thing on TV ("look at the MAGAs shouting USA USA!!"). Areas that have a large minority population sometimes ban clothing with stars and stripes on them as divisive or not inclusive.

Seeing a flag in my neighborhood of 350 houses is fairly unusual unless it's memorial day or july 4th. There are yard signs everywhere with sayings like "hate has no home here" or "however you say hello, wherever you're from, whatever language you speak at home, you're welcome here".

My neighborhood is middle class and probably a 50/50 political mix. When you get to rural areas, you may see things like rocks arranged to say "TRUMP" or buildings with american flags painted on roofs or something, but it's the minority. It was common for citizens to have a flag pole when I was a kid (70s/80s), but it no longer is. I think the reason for that is at the time, there were plenty of veterans and children of veterans alive and there was constant peddling of the threat of the soviets, etc. That stuff is all gone now. Both sides of the aisle use the chinese and russians for scary stories only when it's convenient.

Obviously this doesn't make good TV so we don't see it.

ps.. I own no clothing with an English or UK flag on it!

 

[gregmcateer]

DW,
It's refreshing to hear your thoughts from your side of the pond - the news and social media does tend to inflate the pictures of tensions on 'both' sides.

What I think we find shocking, is that whilst the normal folks like you, who are either non political or in the middle ground, are clearly there and probably in the majority, it isn't surprising us onlookers feel shock - after all, it isn't just the Proud Boys etc, it is your PRESIDENT who's been pumping out hyperbole and exaggeration since he started campaigning for the 2016 election.

 

[mikej460]

I've just read this whole thread and it echoes the fascination we foreigners have in American political affairs, especially since Trump took office. My take on this is that there's good and bad in everybody, every country and every race where the majority of people are law abiding decent people; however, there are always the minority, the antithesis who for whatever reason or goal do the wrong in this world. When I first started to watch Trump on TV I questioned how can one man manipulate ordinary, reasoning, law abiding folk to follow him and his right wing, and all too often, extremist views. Then I reasoned that this has happened throughout millennia and has never ended well because the majority, those decent human beings, always prevail. The problem then is where this extremism exists in the fabric of a country's leadership, where people live in varying degrees of oppression - now that's a whole new topic.

 

[Jake]

Seems to me that the general public won't accept a vote these days unless there is a clear margin.

Not really the issue is it Bob, the issue is what you do if you don't like the result - campaign for another democratic event or storm the democratic institutions and try to take over by force.