Invasion of US Capitol building

[El Barto]

(you'll also note that despite all of the fancy protests and colorful news stories, congress got back to business and already confirmed the election results. If I were one of the police, I probably would've stepped aside also - people have to eat and drink at some point - no need to make martyrs out of any of htem).

But as an American aren't you alarmed at all?

 

[lurker]

Well it's another country ,so for most of us it's none of our business to comment one way or the other.
Our Home Secretary poked her oar in today
We have enough problems of our own, she wants to get slavery stamped out in the uk. That is a damn disgrace and entirely within her remit.

 

[billw]

Whos taking bets on the probability that Biden will become the next assassinated US president. Many will not believe that the election was fair as so much doubt has been cast, and the country is a tinderbox waiting for ignition.

It wouldn't surprise me.

 

[billw]

In his part of the mob, at least, they were only yelling, but he'd heard that windows, etc, were broken on the other side of the building and suggested that some of the counterprotesters were stealthily dressed as MAGAs.

I saw a lot of conservative commentators saying exactly the same this morning. I'm not going to write it off as impossible but..... come on. Liberals have just seen them win the presidency, take control of the senate, and hold control of the house. They have a clean sweep to enact whatever they want for two years with only a conservative Supreme Court to "fight back". Why would left wing agitators do anything like this?

I unapologetically hold zero sympathy nor values with the US right wing, I think they're mostly abhorrent individuals trying to live in the 1950s, so I admit I have an absolute bias. But if you're asking me to believe that it's left wing sabotage versus right wing emboldened activists then I'm going to need a lot of convincing.

Still waiting for that mountain of evidence of fraud btw. Two months down the line, we're still told "it's coming". Sure.....like Christ.

 

[D_W]

But as an American aren't you alarmed at all?

Also, why did a moderator edit one of my posts to remove the part where I said a moderator had edited my post?

Personally? No - A group protested. A woman who was unarmed got shot over it and it sounds like some other people got shot. I heard an account of the woman being at the front of a group who was pushing from behind, but who knows if that's inaccurate. I also heard (due to forum posts elsewhere) that she was unarmed and not doing anything in particular herself worthy of being shot. I guess someone had a nervous trigger finger.

This is a real danger when you get in a group and there are police. But, it's protest. It'll blow over.

We don't go for perfect safety and "we should all have the same opinion"ism in the US. There's a cohort who does, who thinks consensus development is important. In my view, if there is protest, Biden is elected (that's already happened) and it blows over, that's part of democracy.

 

[D_W]

I saw a lot of conservative commentators saying exactly the same this morning. I'm not going to write it off as impossible but..... come on. Liberals have just seen them win the presidency, take control of the senate, and hold control of the house. They have a clean sweep to enact whatever they want for two years with only a conservative Supreme Court to "fight back". Why would left wing agitators do anything like this?

I unapologetically hold zero sympathy nor values with the US right wing, I think they're mostly abhorrent individuals trying to live in the 1950s, so I admit I have an absolute bias. But if you're asking me to believe that it's left wing sabotage versus right wing emboldened activists then I'm going to need a lot of convincing.

Still waiting for that mountain of evidence of fraud btw. Two months down the line, we're still told "it's coming". Sure.....like Christ.

You're looking at this the wrong way assuming some large part of the democratic party is involved in sending counterprotestors. That's not a realistic look at it - dressing like someone else to make them look bad is the territory of unsponsored fringe groups like antifa. What you're creating is an unlikely argument to conclude that something else more likely isn't true.

I'd also guess that what mainstream conservatives are like in the US is shown around the world like fat shows show fat people or rednecks. It's entertainment value. I used to be conservative. I'm not political (the fact that I slid out instead of sliding toward the democratic party is very deliberate). The sensationalism to paint one side or the other as an extreme is in poor taste to me. I think the average conservative in the US is more likely to be a small business owner or employee who never creates any trouble, nor sponsors or endorses it. That doesn't make for a good news story.

If there was 100k protesters in the capitol and there are 125MM adult conservatives, it's not a large slice. News right down the middle doesn't sell well, and it stirs the pot - I'd be in favor of more honest news, less catering to the extremes on the ends and less pot stirring, but we have motivated people on the end points and coverage that is motivated to make money off of them and skew reality.

 

[billw]

We don't go for perfect safety and "we should all have the same opinion"ism in the US. There's a cohort who does, who thinks consensus development is important. In my view, if there is protest, Biden is elected (that's already happened) and it blows over, that's part of democracy.

Maybe you can answer one of my burning questions for America. Trump has said that liberals "want everyone to think like them" as if it's some assault on people's freedom of speech.

Yet what I see from Trump supporters is that they want an America that's populated by white Christians. If you're not "one of them" (ie think like them) then you're not American.

Liberal positions say "accept everyone as an individual". That's not telling you what to think, it's telling you to be a kind, nonjudgmental person. The right wing says hate gays, blacks, transgender, immigrants, Mexicans...whatever. Just write a huge list of people to hate.

SO my question - which Americans are right? In the most individualist society on earth, do the "accept individuals" win, or do the "you must be like us before you can be an individual" win?

 

[billw]

territory of unsponsored fringe groups like antifa.

Antifa means "anti-fascist". If you disagree with this view (they're not a group) then that says to me that you agree with fascism.

This isn't rocket science. Last night I saw a republican tweet "antifa scum" as if being against fascism makes you a bad person.

You're saying that being anti-fascist is FRINGE?

God. Bless. America.

 

[D_W]

Still waiting for that mountain of evidence of fraud btw. Two months down the line, we're still told "it's coming". Sure.....like Christ.

The real sentiment here is that there are instances of fraud (I'm sure there are in every election) and that trump lost the election on his own account). If you can get a minority of the population to make a big stink and believe widespread unproven claims, then that's one thing, but I don't come across an average conservative here who thinks that stuff.

If you could find folks like that just walking around, they're also likely to believe the cell phone company and NSA have taken a personal interest in them (vs. the average person who is well aware that their data patterns are stored and someone may look through them - but we're all in a school of fish here, not everyone gets eaten).

My comparison to the cell phone is purposeful - the whole world acted surprised to find that there are data collection centers that weren't ever disclosed, and then more people acted surprised to find out that their governments did it, too.

Not a whole lot surprises me, or most anyone at this point (but pretending that there's widespread surprise sells on the news - it gives everyone what they really want - the chance to get mad on behalf of someone in the story, or to feel smart because they think the people on the news are stupid). I"m kind of tired of it from all sides.

 

[D_W]

Maybe you can answer one of my burning questions for America. Trump has said that liberals "want everyone to think like them" as if it's some assault on people's freedom of speech.

Yet what I see from Trump supporters is that they want an America that's populated by white Christians. If you're not "one of them" (ie think like them) then you're not American.

Liberal positions say "accept everyone as an individual". That's not telling you what to think, it's telling you to be a kind, nonjudgmental person. The right wing says hate gays, blacks, transgender, immigrants, Mexicans...whatever. Just write a huge list of people to hate.

SO my question - which Americans are right? In the most individualist society on earth, do the "accept individuals" win, or do the "you must be like us before you can be an individual" win?

You may be new to politics, but I'd gather most people in most societies want people opposite of them to think like them. Of course both political parts here are like that. Political parties are like pro wrestling booking plans. It's easy to rouse people if you can convince them who they're rooting for first and then wait and not ever have to deal with telling anyone why (reasonably).

I'm sure that nothing like this occurs re: brexit, that both sides are pleased to have tea and discuss differences calmly.

(I play both sides of this as a fence sitter, agitating individuals when they talk about "what other people should be forced to do" just after they talk about freedom being important. Which version of freedom - to do what you want them to do or to do what they want to do?).

 

[lurker]

Why get worked up about a country far away ?
They have never been concerned about us except to take advantage.
Sorry DW obviously not aimed at you.

 

[D_W]

Antifa means "anti-fascist". If you disagree with this view (they're not a group) then that says to me that you agree with fascism.

This isn't rocket science. Last night I saw a republican tweet "antifa scum" as if being against fascism makes you a bad person.

You're saying that being anti-fascist is FRINGE?

God. Bless. America.

I think if you believe antifa is anti-fascism because that's the name, you're in the weeds. Much like the earth protesters who burned cars at car dealerships. They're interested in their brand of absolutism. They're literally the equivalent of the people they claim to detest, and the people who claim to detest them and work at all costs in the other direction to shout everyone else down are just the same.

Sitting in the middle, I'm fairly hesitant to identify with any of the violent protesters on either side, or agree one is worse than the other. They're both part of the problem.

 

[D_W]

Why get worked up about a country far away ?
They have never been concerned about us except to take advantage.
Sorry DW obviously not aimed at you.

No offense taken - it's accurate. In the united states, we don't really spend much time getting involved or learning about the day to day news elsewhere, and to be frank, we get pretty annoyed when someone clogs our news up with stuff about the queen. We have a couple of scottish and english friends who visit from time to time. They're appalled that we don't have channels concerned only with international news ("you're uninformed") - we just really don't care. I kind of prefer that to the version that shows up first with international coverage, which is news for admonishment ("look how they act over there in ____").

My line to folks in the US who say they could never live somewhere else ("look in___, they're not even allowed to ____"). My favorite thing to say is "no, I'd bet it's more likely that you could live there just fine and if you did, you'd point at another place and say you couldn't live there, but you'd be able to do it just like they do and you'd probably agree with them if you lived with them".

Being apolitical for the purpose of staying out of the verisimilitude doesn't really get you any pals here, but it also saves you from hearing the trash on the extremes of both ends that really is not much different than professional wrestling characters, and to the objectives, not any more believable.

 

[billw]

Why get worked up about a country far away ?
They have never been concerned about us except to take advantage.
Sorry DW obviously not aimed at you.

Because the US is the global hegemon and the world reacts to them. Imagine sitting in Beijing or Moscow now and thinking "well, this is what democracy gets you". They have a point - this IS what democracy gets us. Division. Why do they need to fight us when we can destroy ourselves?

 

[billw]

I think if you believe antifa is anti-fascism because that's the name, you're in the weeds. Much like the earth protesters who burned cars at car dealerships. They're interested in their brand of absolutism. They're literally the equivalent of the people they claim to detest, and the people who claim to detest them and work at all costs in the other direction to shout everyone else down are just the same.

Sitting in the middle, I'm fairly hesitant to identify with any of the violent protesters on either side, or agree one is worse than the other. They're both part of the problem.

I don't subscribe to the notion that being anti-fascist or anti-racist is in any way the same as being involved in the Proud Boys or Three Percenters or whatever. It boils down to basic human decency.

Agree to disagree though, this won't change views.

 

[D_W]

That's sort of a weak out. Antifa is a protest group that encourages violence. Anti-fascist groups tend to work in the courts for legislative change, not in masked protests swinging things at other people. I can spot your bias from the center - you may not feel like it's bias, but your posts have the mark of simplistic character making:

"these people are doing things for basic human decency and these people are not".

Neither is. Be realistic. It's convenient to say things like that, but it goes back to verisimilitude.

 

[Droogs]

That's what happens when you sit on yer arrse for 4 years and do Ef all to stop demigogues and anarchist knobs. As some pompous git said years ago " All that evil requires is that good men do nothing" or words to that effect. Trumps pish should have been stamped out on the 2nd day of his service and harshly. But then we've done sod all on this side of the pond with our own Napoleans. Ah well come the revolution (hopefully).

 

[BRYAN]

Of course the election was free and fair.
All presidents pre Trump have invaded or attacked other countries to allow such. It's what they do.

 

[selectortone]

- this IS what democracy gets us. Division.

The irony is that in the case of the USA, apart from the loony fringes, the two parties are BOTH to the right of centre compared with European democracies - it's just a matter of degree. You might say the same for the vast majority of Americans. I say this as someone who worked for a very large US multinational, and visited the US on many occasions. The idea that the millionaire Bernie Sanders is a socialist when compared to, say, Joseph Stalin, is laughable.

 

[Jacob]

The irony is that in the case of the USA, apart from the loony fringes, the two parties, are BOTH to the right of centre compared with European democracies - it's just a matter of degree. You might say the same for the vast majority of Americans. I say this as someone who worked for a very large US multinational, and visited the US on many occasions. The idea that the millionaire Bernie Sanders is a socialist when compared to, say, Joseph Stalin, is laughable.

The idea that Stalin was a socialist is also laughable.
Sanders sounds like a middle of the road democratic socialist in the European manner. Not too dogmatic/ideological/radical but humanitarian and pragmatic.
USA problems might be over when they finally get a black/latino/native american majority in government.