Invasion of US Capitol building

[clogs]

It's all a shame, the US and Europe are in a right mess plus 1/2 the world really......
mostly because one side or the other want to fill their pockets.....

also it's about time the good ol Beeb (BBC) was neutral.....time enough to get rid of it....me thinks.....
but god knows what'll be best to replace it.....I never watch the news anymore...it's mostley garbage.....

D-W, I'm sorry for your troubles ovr there but our's is only just under the surface.....
face ache and twitters dont help at all.....
Just glad I'm out of it.....

I know nothing of your new man in office but it would be good if he and our gov helped each other more....
free trade would be a good start.....lets just show the world what can be done now we are free
from the united Europe of Germany and France....

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Just as a historical note of fact, this isn't the only time the Capitol building has been 'occupied' by protestors in recent years. Back in 2018, protestors opposed to the appointment of Brett Kavanagh to the Supreme Court stormed and shut down the building.

FLASHBACK: Anti-Kavanaugh Protesters Banged On Doors Of Supreme Court, Occupied Capitol Building (trendingpolitics.com)

(I don't recall quite so much media outrage about that one, certainly not among the UK media. Maybe that says something about the media.)

 

[Trainee neophyte]

 

[gregmcateer]

Trainee
Not left or right here, but by your argument that it was stoked by eg antifa, that means that all the others are idiots and jut followed the clever false protestor(s). Likewise, by the same logic, far right extremists actually tricked the BLM protestors into vandalism, rioting, etc back last year.
Additionally, assuming Fox News are to be trusted more, (or the same), as eg BBC, etc, and the elections were rigged/fraudulent, how come many of the protestors that were interviewed on Wed, (and many times since the election), stated with a straight face and indignation, that if Trump had won, it would have been fair? Surely it's either rigged or it isn't? That doesn't seem like something you can pick and choose depending if your guy won? And how come the 2016 election wasn't rigged?
Just a couple of thoughts.

 

[D_W]

It's all a shame, the US and Europe are in a right mess plus 1/2 the world really......
mostly because one side or the other want to fill their pockets.....

also it's about time the good ol Beeb (BBC) was neutral.....time enough to get rid of it....me thinks.....
but god knows what'll be best to replace it.....I never watch the news anymore...it's mostley garbage.....

D-W, I'm sorry for your troubles ovr there but our's is only just under the surface.....
face ache and twitters dont help at all.....
Just glad I'm out of it.....

I know nothing of your new man in office but it would be good if he and our gov helped each other more....
free trade would be a good start.....lets just show the world what can be done now we are free
from the united Europe of Germany and France....

We'll all be alright. You're right about gov. folks actually trying to solve problems, but that's not what rewards them, I guess.

I will admit I was happy when trump was elected because I didn't want to see hillary in office (not because I knew anything about Trump). I am happy to see biden coming into office, but wary here in the states of two branches of government (that do all of the legislating and executing) being in the same party. That's usually bad news, and leads to springback later because people always grow to dislike whoever is in office. 1994 was the rise of republicans, then after that, the rise of democrats, and back recently until really recently toward republicans and now back to democrats. After people see democrats for four years, they'll forget about what they don't like about republicans and vote them back in.

It's really strange to me, but most of us vote against someone these days rather than for them. There aren't many things in life that turn out when when your objective is to avoid something rather than to accomplish something.

I do think there's never been a better time to be alive than now, though, and that most of our perception of trouble has nothing to do with what's at our doorstep (covid aside, it's a one-off) but with how much information we're bombarded with and the fact that it's now narrative instead of more or less news data. Narrative is enticing and makes dopamine go for everyone, but the byproducts it leaves behind are far less good. The news story linked suggesting the real problem here is the rioters are all racists is the kind of thing that does nobody any favors. Ever build consensus with anyone by insulting them?

The times where people will now say nostaligcally that they had it better usually equate to simplified narratives and overlooking things:
* grow up in the 1910s, feel it was great? WWI was just around the corner
* the 20s? a very temporary time that build the foundation for the depression
* the 30s - nobody who lived in the depression other than a few of means wasn't deeply marked by it. It created a generation of elderly hoarders in the US
* the 40s? - WWII was pretty rough
* 50s and 60s? the era of expansion by borrowing began, race tensions, threat of nuclear war
* 70s? climate gloom and doom emerged, oil problems, economic malaise
* 80s? aids, economic trouble until the middle and then a market crash and horrid job market at the tail end (but lots of good music left behind, and some rotten, but that came from the 60s-80s in general, and back to the 50s if you like the chet atkins types)
* 1990s? hard to find a job in the first part and expansion in the second part based on ill advised borrowing and export of the base of the economy to the second and third worlds
* 2000s? crash again, two expensive wars that look to have temporary effect only, and the rise of social media

Times before the 1910s were a whole lot rougher in terms of raw effort just to survive and avoid economic ruin.

 

[D_W]

And how come the 2016 election wasn't rigged?

are you kidding? Do you not remember how long the investigation over "Russian election rigging" went on? It more or less lasted 3 years of this current 4 year term, with talk of impeachment about similar to the talk of "2020 election fraud".

There was no substance to the whole russian rigging thing, just as there is none to the election rigging.

let's be a little bit more objective - just as the mention above of breaching the capitol during the kavanaugh hearings.

It's not always convenient to just state everything and say "I don't know, I can see how most of the people could be misled to thinking what they do on both sides and it's a shame".

Most people here regard BBC as being like another PBS. PBS is regarded as having slightly liberal biased news, but reliable compared to any of the larger networks. See my narrative comment above regarding the choice of the networks, anyway.

 

[billw]

I do actually read/watch the right-wing views as well as BBC, WaPo, NYT, but I do get my info from mostly MSM. I have to say they both do live in completely alternative factual universes. Which do I believe? Well there's been plenty of Republicans in Georgia going blue in the face trying to explain that there's no identified fraud, certainly not on the scale pushed by the right. Trump just keeps trotting out the same theories - still no actual evidence two months later, it's "around the corner, wait for the big reveal". It's hard not to sceptical.

I don't understand the feeling of being disenfranchised, it's called losing. More people voted for the other guy, they're getting their voices heard. However 50% of the Senate is Republican and 48/49%-ish in the House is too, and 2/3rds of the Supreme Court - so what I see is a lot of conservative voices that have a place in the democratic system. Also - America doesn't like losers. Said it before on here I think, part of national psyche.

The conspiracy theory angle, which does seem to stem almost entirely from the right - I can't figure it out but I think Americans have a tendency to try and rationalise everything - look at the sheer volume of statistics they have in sport to try and explain why a team scored or didn't score, or should have lost but didn't and etc etc.

Oh and yesterday I went and had a look at thedonald.win forum. It's.... interesting.

 

[Jacob]

...
The conspiracy theory angle, which does seem to stem almost entirely from the right - I can't figure it out .....

I don't believe the conspiracy theories. It may sometimes seem like a cunning plot but it's more that when things are going s**t shaped certain factions suddenly find a common purpose or opportunity, as rats do when leaving a sinking ship, or vultures and hyenas around a wounded animal.

 

[billw]

I don't believe the conspiracy theories. It may sometimes seem like a cunning plot but it's more that when things are going s**t shaped certain factions suddenly find a common purpose or opportunity, as rats do when leaving a sinking ship, or vultures and hyenas around a wounded animal.

Well, no I don't believe them either since they're generally debunked with what I would accept as plausible explanations. The problem is that those who have invested in theories have a much more difficult time unwinding themselves from it - the fear of having to admit they were wrong etc. The QAnon thing for example - if Trump loses office without exposing a cannibalistic, satanic, child molesting cabal then the whole thing falls apart instantly. The day he loses office the internet will be full of people rationalising that he's still going to do it but it was never meant to be whilst he was in office, that was just giving him time to collect the evidence etc etc.

 

[D_W]

I do actually read/watch the right-wing views as well as BBC, WaPo, NYT, but I do get my info from mostly MSM. I have to say they both do live in completely alternative factual universes. Which do I believe? Well there's been plenty of Republicans in Georgia going blue in the face trying to explain that there's no identified fraud, certainly not on the scale pushed by the right. Trump just keeps trotting out the same theories - still no actual evidence two months later, it's "around the corner, wait for the big reveal". It's hard not to sceptical.

I don't understand the feeling of being disenfranchised, it's called losing. More people voted for the other guy, they're getting their voices heard. However 50% of the Senate is Republican and 48/49%-ish in the House is too, and 2/3rds of the Supreme Court - so what I see is a lot of conservative voices that have a place in the democratic system. Also - America doesn't like losers. Said it before on here I think, part of national psyche.

The conspiracy theory angle, which does seem to stem almost entirely from the right - I can't figure it out but I think Americans have a tendency to try and rationalise everything - look at the sheer volume of statistics they have in sport to try and explain why a team scored or didn't score, or should have lost but didn't and etc etc.

Oh and yesterday I went and had a look at thedonald.win forum. It's.... interesting.

as I said, the election fraud and the whole "trump was put in office by the russians" thing are about equal. The former is new, but the latter kept people glued to cable news for 3 years. My parents are split party. My mother watch MSNBC much of her waking time. My father watches sports most of his waking time, but does watch fox news fairly often. When we visit there, I've requested having the TVs turned off, but it doesn't work, so we stay in a hotel. Both of the networks are toxic. here's how you can see people getting worked - turn all of it off for a month or four, read about professional wrestling writing (building an angle, getting people angry - because that's what sells tickets and pay per views), and then go back and watch the news here other than PBS.

You will be convinced that since all of the pro wrestling territories have merged here that all of the writers have gone to the news networks. The russian election thing sent my mother into depression - she believed so much in it that she couldn't stop watching. My dad voted for trump (I have only voted recently to cancel out my wife's vote when I think both candidates deserve a no vote, but didn't vote in the last election - I think abstention sends its own message), my mother obviously voted against him. They've been living in separate rooms for four years. My dad believes the stuff on fox but it doesn't affect him day to day. You can't have a conversation with my mother without her getting into politics and the exit of trump finally should bring one thing - I won't have to hear what the next guaranteed impeachment date will be.

My dad does believe there was widespread fraud, but when I press him on it, he also believes biden won the election but that the fraud is something that should be investigated. I usually float a fart in church by saying "i think they should audit it and see which way the fraud goes net of it on both sides. It may eliminate some in the future and make people recognize that it exists in small amounts on both sides". That ends the discussion.

I saw (can't remember her name now - popular host on MSNBC....maddow) with my mother and said "OK, i've had some troughs in life and understand thinking traps. There is zero chance that this host doesn't have issues with depression and anxiety. The way she's talking, i understand it's part gimmick, but it literally hits every point on the list of thinking traps. I looked it up, found out that she's had bouts of depression so bad that she loses her sense of smell and told my mother that it probably wasn't a good idea to listen to her. I feel for people who have depression - I had a drug reaction once in the past to a migraine medication that was instant depression - it's like being on a different planet, which is where I learned the thinking trap stuff. It's, in my opinion, morally wrong to trade on it, though. My mother kicked me out of the room. hah! When both news channels were on in the house, we took the kids back to the hotel and went in the pool.

 

[Droogs]

All of this could have been avoided if they just had a communications act that demands only factually correct information is broadcast and any station who peddle BS loses its licence and the owners are charged with sedition and get 20 years in the nick - no time off

 

[D_W]

Well, no I don't believe them either since they're generally debunked with what I would accept as plausible explanations. The problem is that those who have invested in theories have a much more difficult time unwinding themselves from it - the fear of having to admit they were wrong etc. The QAnon thing for example - if Trump loses office without exposing a cannibalistic, satanic, child molesting cabal then the whole thing falls apart instantly. The day he loses office the internet will be full of people rationalising that he's still going to do it but it was never meant to be whilst he was in office, that was just giving him time to collect the evidence etc etc.

The day the media decides it's no longer a story, we'll stop hearing about it. Like the investigation into russian election meddling or the kavanaugh fascination, it can't come too soon. I don't know what qanon is, and someone used the term "kracken" to me the other day (sounds like a video game character or something to do with processing nuts. "I went to the store today and got the kracken. We're making walnut cookies tomorrow and it should really speed it up"..

..the chance that whatever is next with the media being good, more fact, less narrative is zero - so I look forward to being uninformed as above. I know what BLM is because they requested we not work in the office the day BLM rallies were going on downtown (but, as I mentioned, I walked through them - very uneventful and I would've gladly shaken the hands of anyone in the rally - we're people. I patted a few on the back as I walked by. I think it's more productive even though a guy in a dress coat with a briefcase looks out of place walking through.) Having gone through the group from end to end, I wished they'd just livestream it on the news for a while - what will people think if they see the actual event and nothing happens?

 

[D_W]

All of this could have been avoided if they just had a communications act that demands only factually correct information is broadcast and any station who peddle BS loses its licence and the owners are charged with sedition and get 20 years in the nick - no time off

Sounds very russian. What happens when you report a segment of the facts that leads people to a different conclusion than the whole story? What happens when you make an honest mistake?

A better conclusion would be an independent fact checker providing details, and a rating for news shows, channels and personalities. I would imagine the rating/fact checkers would be overridden with bias fairly quickly, though, because that would be more profitable. They'd soon be aiming for clicks and it goes back to pro wrestling psychology.

 

[billw]

@D_W the biggest problem seems to be the conditioning of each side to simply unilaterally reject the other side's arguments, i.e. the polarisation. I feel sorry for Biden's government in that I suspect Harris is going to be casting decisive votes almost every week because the respective parties will simply vote down hard party lines, even though I'm sure there's conversation Democrats and liberal Republicans on SOME issues. Maybe the two independents who caucus with the Dems realise they now hold a lot of sway. They can demand very progressive agendas on the principle that if they're not progressive enough they can side with the Reps. I suspect Bernie is highly unlikely to do that but you never know.

At some point there does need to be a very adult conversation about the future of the USA though, the facts and statistics suggest that it really is becoming two countries. I've said at university that I can see another US civil war in my lifetime, purely on cultural ideology.

On that note, maybe you could explain to me what the point of North Dakota is? They get two senators but erm...what does the state do? Why is it separate from South Dakota? I couldn't even tell you what the capital city is and I'm generally good at knowing those.

 

[billw]

Sounds very russian. What happens when you report a segment of the facts that leads people to a different conclusion than the whole story? What happens when you make an honest mistake?

A better conclusion would be an independent fact checker providing details, and a rating for news shows, channels and personalities. I would imagine the rating/fact checkers would be overridden with bias fairly quickly, though, because that would be more profitable. They'd soon be aiming for clicks and it goes back to pro wrestling psychology.

At this point can I say I love the wresting analogies as I grew up watching the WWF over here despite it was on for one hour a week on ITV at 2am on a Monday morning.

 

[Blackswanwood]

 

[billw]

Trump doing his best to help the nation move forward by not attending Biden's inauguration

 

[Awac]

All of this could have been avoided if they just had a communications act that demands only factually correct information is broadcast and any station who peddle BS loses its licence and the owners are charged with sedition and get 20 years in the nick - no time off

First you have to have a government that wants free speech...

https://www.theguardian.com/educati...t-to-use-anti-capitalist-material-in-teaching

 

[Droogs]

Sounds very russian. What happens when you report a segment of the facts that leads people to a different conclusion than the whole story? What happens when you make an honest mistake?

A better conclusion would be an independent fact checker providing details, and a rating for news shows, channels and personalities. I would imagine the rating/fact checkers would be overridden with bias fairly quickly, though, because that would be more profitable. They'd soon be aiming for clicks and it goes back to pro wrestling psychology.

No as most don't bother with anything after the headlines. The fact that Fox rescind their BS a few days after they broadcast makes no difference it has already had the intended effect. So best to get them to F off before they are able to cause the death of more people.. And it is all sides it should apply to

 

[selectortone]

as I said, the election fraud and the whole "trump was put in office by the russians" thing are about equal.

I would put more credence in the latter. There are massive, and very sophisticated operations, with huge buildings full of people, in Russia (and China, Iran and a dozen other places) logged into social media 24x7 peddling fake news in the form of conspiracy theories. Their purpose is to polarize the American population, foment hate and destabilise western democracy. On recent evidence, I'd say they are doing a pretty good job.

We are sleepwalking into an apocalypse.