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RogerS

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I always find it fascinating to see how others make things. You can spend ages poring over a piece of furniture and think that you've seen it all but then when you get back and start looking at some high-res photographs you see things that you missed. The glue line in what you thought was a single moulding, for example.

And then sometimes you ask yourself...'Why?'...as in this case.

From the external side, this glass framed door seems to have a scribed joint (shown by the arrow)



but look at the joint from the inside and suddenly it's not so clear cut. If the joint was a normal scribed joint...and I see no reason why it shouldn't be...then you'd expect the scribe line on the rail to end up where I've shown a dotted line. Instead it finishes where it does (shown by arrow) which seems to me an awful lot of extra and unnecessary work to do it like that. The interior beading is screwed in place after the glass is fitted.



Hence my question....why?
 

Jacob

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I think the inside rebate was routered out after the frame had been constructed; the corners cleaned up with a chisel.
 

RogerS

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Eric The Viking":3lh7gpje said:
Roger, can you get a snap of the outside bottom of the joint easily?

Is it a haunched tenon, perchance? Jacob's explanation makes a lot of sense...
Not easily at the moment. Haunched tenon...overkill IMO.
 

andy king

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That's a real oddity!
As Jacob says, the rebate is routed and corners pared back, but usually you see the same thing on the face side as well, the moulding routed and the corner quirk squared up.
It's normally a quick workaround for frames, everything jointed 'in the square' and all moulding, rebating done with the router after.
(doesn't look very nice either!)
It seems odd to take the time to do all that work in moulding the piece, including taking the time to scribe or mitre the joint and yet not to rebate for the glazing and joint it correctly.
It's actually easier to mould and rebate and then make the joint properly rather than the one shown - As I see it, you would essentially have a stepped shoulder construction, but done correctly with the rebate formed at the same time as the mould.
The quirk of the mould is normally the same depth of the rebate floor, so the shoulders on the tenons are equal, therefore no additonal marking out so no real reason not to do so.
The haunch side of things is really irrelevant with regards to the joint here, it's inclusion and position wouldn't affect the position of the shoulderlines on the joint itself.

Cheers,
Andy
 

Benchwayze

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Would you like a horror story?

Years ago, I was asked to make a window-frame for a builder I knew. When he came around to check on progress, I was just cramping up.
'Oh I haven't got time for all that,' he said, 'I want the frame in today, not next week!'
He took the frame away and belted some 4 inch nails through my joints, claiming the nails would hold the frame while the glue dried. He fitted the frame as was, saying that the brickwork would keep it all square and do the rest. Once the job was painted who would know, until the building fell down?

In a way, I couldn't argue against his codge-logic, but I never made anything else for him!

And the 'mason's mitre or scribe joint, is used to avoid mitred mouldings opening up over the years. I think...

John :D
 

Eric The Viking

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andy king":3w24uon8 said:
The haunch side of things is really irrelevant with regards to the joint here, it's inclusion and position wouldn't affect the position of the shoulderlines on the joint itself.
Points taken.

I was asking, only because it might reveal something of how the mouldings/rebates were run.

E.
 

Jacob

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Eric The Viking":kh9aow7g said:
andy king":kh9aow7g said:
The haunch side of things is really irrelevant with regards to the joint here, it's inclusion and position wouldn't affect the position of the shoulderlines on the joint itself.
Points taken.

I was asking, only because it might reveal something of how the mouldings/rebates were run.

E.
However they did it it's a bodge so I wouldn't be surprised if it was just a bridle joint.
 

tomatwark

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It may not be a bodge as such but an alteration.

It my have had solid panels in groove moulded on the face but plain on the back but then the panels removed from the back to put glass in later.

This would give this look to the joints.

Tom
 

Eric The Viking

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tomatwark":26ghb20w said:
It may not be a bodge as such but an alteration.

It my have had solid panels in groove moulded on the face but plain on the back but then the panels removed from the back to put glass in later.

This would give this look to the joints.

Tom
Makes sense, 'specially if it's a haunched tenon that's the thickness of the original groove.
 

RogerS

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tomatwark":1ss7ztid said:
It may not be a bodge as such but an alteration.

It my have had solid panels in groove moulded on the face but plain on the back but then the panels removed from the back to put glass in later.

This would give this look to the joints.

Tom

No..definitely what you see is how it was made. Never any solid panels in there.

Not quite sure why Jacob thinks it is a bodge.
 

andy king

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tomatwark":1k0pmxe0 said:
It may not be a bodge as such but an alteration.

It my have had solid panels in groove moulded on the face but plain on the back but then the panels removed from the back to put glass in later.

This would give this look to the joints.

Tom
Good shout! That makes perfect sense, it seems to be too well made from the front face to do a bodge job at the back when it was first made.

Andy
 

andy king

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RogerS":7xloy1vv said:
Think our posts crossed, Andy.
Looks like it!
I still reckon the comment from Tom sounds probable though - not unusual to make frames with panels fitted directly to a plough groove rather than a rebate, and in this instance the panel removed at a later date and a rebate cut for glazing beads.

Andy
 

andy king

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RogerS":2s8e5bbj said:
I agree but I know the provenance of the piece and it was made originally with the glass.
Haha! that's that theory knackered then! :lol: :lol: :lol:

cheers,
Andy
 

andy king

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Only other thing I can think of was that it was originally made with glass directly to a plough groove rather than rebate and the glass got broken so had to be rebated to allow a replacement?

Andy
 

tomatwark

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Roger

Unless the design changed part way the making the piece or the guy who made it did not understand the customers requirements.


Tom
 

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