Customs declarations and brexit

[pidgeonpost]

The last couple of pages make me despair for humanity; the dragging up of anti-EU tropes that have been disproved so long ago, and so many times, that there must be nothing left of the body - it having been beaten so hard. Add to that bizarre conclusions from minor bits of evidence, and then finally a reference to Hitler
The last couple of pages make me despair for humanity; the dragging up of anti-EU tropes that have been disproved so long ago, and so many times, that there must be nothing left of the body - it having been beaten so hard. Add to that bizarre conclusions from minor bits of evidence, and then finally a reference to Hitler

This thread goes some way to explaining why some forums ban the discussion of politics, religion, and other topics which lie outside of the main purposes of the forum. Here's an example.
It's clear that neither side of the Brexit debate on here will be shifted from the views they already hold, and if people want to discuss, debate, or fulminate on these matters, then more appropriate forums exist for them to do so.
I know, I've said this before, and been told that the forum would be a duller place without freedom of expression, but seriously, Admins, what's the point of permitting the perpetuation of such an endless and unresolvable argument?

 

[Blackswanwood]

Is this thread making anyone feel better?

From my reading of it neither "side" has changed their opinion as a result of anything said here and the same "facts" are just being repeated multiple times. Someone said in an earlier post that the facts need to be acknowledged before we can move on ... unfortunately that's just not going to happen. Imho moving on is the only thing we can do unless we want to spend the rest of our lives either admiring the problem (if you feel we should have stayed in) and/or letting the new opportunities slip away (if you are glad we left).

I voted remain and think logically leaving was a daft thing to do - the vote was based on sentiment just as much as facts though. It may be imperfect but it's no different to any other vote in the last umpteen years.

However the sun keeps coming up every morning and I live in a country that despite it's shortcomings has lots going for it. Keeping on raking over the same facts and decrying the views of others must be cathartic for some which perhaps demonstrates how we are all different.

 

[Doug B]

Is this thread making anyone feel better?

I’ve previously ignored threads like this I generally only come here for the woodwork & have done for many years but yes I have rather enjoyed this thread it’s interesting to see other people’s views, I don’t recall any name calling or nastiness so I really don’t see the problem. As I‘ve said I regularly used to skip threads like these I don’t see why those who don’t like them can’t do the same.

 

[RobinBHM]

Ive merely pointed out that the EU isn’t the shinning embodiment that some make it out to be, I’m more than willing to say our government is corrupt as is the EU but remainers seem unwilling to admit this

Are remainers "unwilling to admit this"?
I have never heard any remainers suggest the EU is a "shining embodiment"
I think you know you are setting up a strawman argument there.


There is a very important point I am trying to make, which goes to the heart of a constant misleading narrative central to most brexiter arguments.

Brexiters repeatedly say stuff like:
"The EU is corrupt"
"The EU is protectionist"
"The EU is a gravy train"

But it's meaningless without comparison.

Sure there is corruption in the EU, sure there is protectionism.
But it means nothing, absolutely nothing as an isolated statement.


We need to sidestep emotive slogans and look at whatever facts and evidence are available
How corrupt is the EU, how does it compare to UK, USA or any other 1st world economy?


What is wrong, is brexiters using "EU is corrupt" as a justification for Brexit, when the UK government has shown itself to be very corrupt itself.
I am sorry but unless you can prove the UK govt is less corrupt than the EU, that's not justification for Brexit.

Even worse is that the real purpose of Brexit was to enable corruption.....Brexit was always about the vested self interest of rich capitalists. The "getting back control" was nothing to do with the people taking back control.....it was about the leaders in charge taking back control....for personal gain.


Unless we can start to remove these emotive arguments and look at them in context, we can't move forward.



If you believe leaving the EU means less corruption and more accountability....Great, let's see the evidence.
I welcome less corruption, because that means better wealth distribution.

 

[RobinBHM]

I’ve previously ignored threads like this I generally only come here for the woodwork & have done for many years but yes I have rather enjoyed this thread it’s interesting to see other people’s views, I don’t recall any name calling or nastiness so I really don’t see the problem. As I‘ve said I regularly used to skip threads like these I don’t see why those who don’t like them can’t do the same.

I have actually found the threads on here far more useful than reading newspapers etc.

The reason is that, following this thread means seeing arguments expressed from both sides. It's far too easy when reading newspapers etc to only read what supports our confirmation bias.

The other thing is that there are some extremely intelligent people on here, from all walks of life and all with different life experiences.

I know the posts we've been having together are from somewhat different sides of the fence, but ultimately I dont think our views are miles apart.

 

[Lons]

Do you think spending time on a woodwork forum is benefitting you then, or helping to resolve the matter.
I would have thought spending the time on a more government focused forum / website would feel more pro active, I don't think Boris is on here.
My point was at the OP, who couldn't fill in the correct 2minute form but will quite happily spend probably a total of days on an internet thread.

Spot on Bob with this and your previous post. We all know of course that the form filling was a thinly veiled excuse to start another Brexit / political thread ahead of the forthcoming local elections, it must have been very lonely in exile without a soapbox to stand on, It's just same ol same ol and flogging a dead horse.
We left the EU in accordance with the vote result carried out in the same way as all voting in this country including the obligatory lies, deceit, and everything else. I voted remain, at least I voted unlike thousands of others who couldn't be arissed so it's done and no amount of arguing on a piddling little forum will make a single jot of difference.

 

[Jonm]

This thread goes some way to explaining why some forums ban the discussion of politics, religion, and other topics which lie outside of the main purposes of the forum. Here's an example.
It's clear that neither side of the Brexit debate on here will be shifted from the views they already hold, and if people want to discuss, debate, or fulminate on these matters, then more appropriate forums exist for them to do so.
I know, I've said this before, and been told that the forum would be a duller place without freedom of expression, but seriously, Admins, what's the point of permitting the perpetuation of such an endless and unresolvable argument?

Well it is in the off topic section and it is interesting to see the deep held views among practical people with an interest in woodwork. It is an “endless and unresolvable argument”. It would help to ease tensions if both sides looked objectively at their position and carefully analysed what they say before saying it. Try asking, am I just repeating a slogan I have heard or am I factually correct.

The reality is that we have been very badly governed. The 1975 referendum established that we were happy with the common market as it then was. To change to what it is now we needed to sign the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties. That was the time for referendums, the treaties needed our signature to be ratified. A lot of EU nations had referendums then. A refusal to sign at that stage would have given us huge power to amend it, possibly a two speed Europe, or we could have left then on terms very favourable to us. We did not have referendums at that stage and years later decided to have a referendum and leave, and the EU have put us through the wringer and we have an internal border within the UK. Total government incompetence and a divided nation.

 

[doctor Bob]

I wonder if Jacob is going to give it another crack, may get over a dozen this time around.
I shall follow the result to see if the new candidate does better or worse than Jacob, technically he has to do worse as by Jacobs words, Labour were coming into full glory back in the day under jezza.
Jacob smashed it, I reckon the new candidate will get a few less than Jacob, maybe 6 or 7 ....... mum, dad, brother, aunt, great nan once removed .......................

 

[RobinBHM]

Total government incompetence and a divided nation.

the divided nation thing was deliberate strategy -Brexit was won joining the different brexit factions by uniting them against a common enemy.

 

[RobinBHM]

looked objectively at their position and carefully analysed what they say before saying it. Try asking, am I just repeating a slogan I have heard or am I factually correct.

Excellent point. - I will give this more consideration.

 

[RobinBHM]

Here is an idea for this thread going forward:

Instead of repeating the things we disagree about, how about finding things that we agree on.

reaching consensus is about building on common ground.

 

[Jonm]

Spot on Bob with this and your previous post. We all know of course that the form filling was a thinly veiled excuse to start another Brexit / political thread ahead of the forthcoming local elections, it must have been very lonely in exile without a soapbox to stand on, It's just same ol same ol and flogging a dead horse.
We left the EU in accordance with the vote result carried out in the same way as all voting in this country including the obligatory lies, deceit, and everything else. I voted remain, at least I voted unlike thousands of others who couldn't be arissed so it's done and no amount of arguing on a piddling little forum will make a single jot of difference.

I voted remain and think we have made a big mistake. However there are aspects of the EU I did not like. The Euro, how can you have monetary union without political union, rich areas have to send money to poor areas, not make the poor areas take out loans which they cannot repay. I was uneasy about the high levels of uncontrolled immigration. The general direction of travel of ever closer union (probably necessary for euro countries) was a concern. Complete government incompetence for many years as I have posted above.

 

[sploo]

I was uneasy about the high levels of uncontrolled immigration.

But you see; this is exactly the sort of powerful, emotive, statement without evidence that's been highlighted as an issue in the most recent posts.

Do you mean uncontrolled immigration from non-EU countries into EU countries? Do you mean uncontrolled immigration from poorer EU countries into richer EU countries? This question must also be considered in context with the presence of the EU rules that state that citizens migrating from one EU nation to another must be self supporting (i.e. have a job).

Taken without any of the above context it's just another battle cry of "them" coming to steal our jobs and our culture - and it works, because it resonates with people's fears; regardless of whether or not it's true.

 

[Peterm1000]

Arguably, you don't have to look back very far to see that we all descended from immigrants and should maybe be a little more tolerant. The concept of a country having a border is only a few hundred years old. The language we speak didn't originate in the UK and most of our ancestors arrived in the UK less than 100 generations ago.

 

[Amateur]

Is this thread making anyone feel better?

I feel a lot better.
I know I'm not as nutty as some on here.
I know when to withdraw from the discussion.
I'm amazed how some people have got their responses off pat before you even post anything.
I'm feeling so much better I married the wife every time I drop in here, bucks me up no end.........
As I sit on my yacht smoking a Monecristo number 2, sipping Spring Bank 10 year old.........no need to drink the Arran 18 today, ..........without a care in the world

 

[sploo]

Arguably, you don't have to look back very far to see that we all descended from immigrants and should maybe be a little more tolerant. The concept of a country having a border is only a few hundred years old. The language we speak didn't originate in the UK and most of our ancestors arrived in the UK less than 100 generations ago.

Unfortunately as soon as a human is in one spot for more than 10 minutes they'll start complaining about immigrants when someone new turns up

It reminds me of an amusing exchange I saw on Twitter a few years ago; a guy was claiming he'd traced his ancestry "all the way back" to prove he was pure blood English, with no foreigners anywhere in his history. Someone pointed out the following:

• Take the average age of each generation at reproduction to be 30 (likely much younger going back in time, but let's stick with 30)
• "All the way back"; let's go to 1066; as we can probably agree things get a bit muddy past then. Call that ~900 years ago
• 900 years, with a reproduction age of 30 is 30 generations (900/30)
• If you want to check the history of your immediate previous generation, that's 2 people (mum and dad)
• Two generations is 6 people (mum and dad [2], plus their parents [2+2])
• Three generations takes you to 14 people (mum and dad [2], their parents [2+2], their parents parents [2+2+2+2])
• By 30 generations, you'll have needed to check the background of 2,147,483,646 people
• If you could fully confirm the "Englishness" of each of those people in just 1 second, it would take 68 years to complete

Mr "all the way back" didn't respond

 

[Jacob]

Unfortunately as soon as a human is in one spot for more than 10 minutes they'll start complaining about immigrants when someone new turns up

It reminds me of an amusing exchange I saw on Twitter a few years ago; a guy was claiming he'd traced his ancestry "all the way back" to prove he was pure blood English, with no foreigners anywhere in his history. Someone pointed out the following:

• Take the average age of each generation at reproduction to be 30 (likely much younger going back in time, but let's stick with 30)
• "All the way back"; let's go to 1066; as we can probably agree things get a bit muddy past then. Call that ~900 years ago
• 900 years, with a reproduction age of 30 is 30 generations (900/30)
• If you want to check the history of your immediate previous generation, that's 2 people (mum and dad)
• Two generations is 6 people (mum and dad [2], plus their parents [2+2])
• Three generations takes you to 14 people (mum and dad [2], their parents [2+2], their parents parents [2+2+2+2])
• By 30 generations, you'll have needed to check the background of 2,147,483,646 people
• If you could fully confirm the "Englishness" of each of those people in just 1 second, it would take 68 years to complete

Mr "all the way back" didn't respond

Ah but - they left out incest! There was a lot of that about in the old days, could produce a very different number. World pop AD1000 300million apparently - much easier to check!

 

[sploo]

Ah but - they left out incest! There was a lot of that about in the old days, could produce a very different number. 300million apparently - much easier to check!

It did occur to me, but I suspect the original poster didn't want to start that argument. Plus, Mr "all the way back"'s gran probably juggled an African American GI's privates during WWII, and didn't tell anyone

 

[Jonm]

But you see; this is exactly the sort of powerful, emotive, statement without evidence that's been highlighted as an issue in the most recent posts.

Do you mean uncontrolled immigration from non-EU countries into EU countries? Do you mean uncontrolled immigration from poorer EU countries into richer EU countries? This question must also be considered in context with the presence of the EU rules that state that citizens migrating from one EU nation to another must be self supporting (i.e. have a job).

Taken without any of the above context it's just another battle cry of "them" coming to steal our jobs and our culture - and it works, because it resonates with people's fears; regardless of whether or not it's true.

I said “uncontrolled immigration” clearly that refers to immigration that we cannot control which means immigration from other EU countries when we were a member.

You have not mentioned us not imposing the seven year ban on immigrants from the A8 countries which virtually every other country in the EU did. We also did not enforce the requirements to have a job in the same way that Germany does with its registration requirements. Both factors stoking the “we are being swamped” rhetoric and an example of bad Government.

As someone who wishes we were still in the EU I was stating some of the things which, in my opinion were downsides to membership. I said I was “uneasy about the high levels of uncontrolled immigration” and like a viper you strike. Ease up, read the comments in their entirety, try to see the other point of view. Don’t assume that the other person is an uninformed i-diot who needs to be questioned and educated.

 

[Jacob]

I said “uncontrolled immigration” clearly that refers to immigration that we cannot control which means immigration from other EU countries when we were a member.

You have not mentioned us not imposing the seven year ban on immigrants from the A8 countries which virtually every other country in the EU did. We also did not enforce the requirements to have a job in the same way that Germany does with its registration requirements. Both factors stoking the “we are being swamped” rhetoric and an example of bad Government.

As someone who wishes we were still in the EU I was stating some of the things which, in my opinion were downsides to membership. I said I was “uneasy about the high levels of uncontrolled immigration” and like a viper you strike. Ease up, read the comments in their entirety, try to see the other point of view. Don’t assume that the other person is an uninformed i-diot who needs to be questioned and educated.

It's very confusing, according to this: "What people – even, seemingly, the government – did not realise is that, since 2006, the Free Movement Directive (to give it its formal title, EU Directive 2004/38/EC) has given us exactly the control over immigration that voters demanded"
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/we-can-control-eu-migration-we-just-havent-done-it/