Can't find the water valve in the street. Any ideas?

[Stuart Moffat]

I cannot imagine any water company puting your isolation valve in the road, that is just stupid and even worse if you have a meter as some guy will need to read it occasionally and if in the road they would expect some form of traffic control whilst doing so. If it is not on the pavement then take a look around your garden near the boundary as that is where they used to be put, often at the bottom of a clay pipe with a lid .

I’m afraid that your imagination is let down by Anglian water in little Paxton, near st Neots, where on a fairly new housing estate about 20 years old, I was dealing with the problem of the rising main stopcock in the kitchen not properly shutting off in my son’s first house. Not metered, and neighbours had no idea either. Anglian water were helpful but had to send someone out to find it. Under a manhole cover pretty much in the middle of the road and about 10 houses away from my son’s, there’s an array of stop valves for most of the street. It’s a really stupid place for it.

 

[Lons]

The OP says he's turned it off in the past and made a special key to fit so it's a bit presumptuous IMO to suggest he doesn't know what he's talking about by saying that's not where his stopcock was located. It's pretty clear from the photograph that the access point shown IS located in the road, the cover is clearly marked as such is it not and it's just as stupid to put a test point in the road as a shut off valve. There is also clear evidence that it has been excavated at some point in the past as the tarmac around it is different which would not be the case otherwise.

Ours is in the pavement very close to the road but don't presume the water boards or builders of the time have commonsense as I've seen a number of access points in rather stupid locations when I had my building company. Our houses are only around 50 years old and our water company doesn't even have an accurate map of the drainage systems, I know this because they were employing students to knock on doors to ask if they knew which manholes were surface and which were foul systems, I spent an hour with two of them explaining while they drew the points on a map. BT are the same, instead of trunking for the telephone wires they were just buried so although full fibre is now only 50 yards from us I can't get it without them shoving a mole through instead of just pulling cables.

As far as water meters are concerned, unless a big family in a low band rated property or you're constantly watering the garden or have a car wash business on the side you would usually save, our bills were halved and we've had one for years now

 

[GuitardoctorW7]

I've got a dicey main water valve in my house.

View attachment 176145

25 years ago I shut it off to change the kitchen tap and when I switched it back on, it leaked pretty badly.

I called a plumber and asked for it to be changed but its "lead" apparently (or the piping is) and plumbers don't do lead anymore.

The irony...

Anyway, the plumber did "something" to stop it leaking and after that I just shut it off in the street.

Fast forward about 20 years since I had to shut it off and I go out into the street, locate the cover, open it, wet vac the rubbish out and... no valve.

View attachment 176146

View attachment 176147

That's a blanking cap for a test point.

The water shut off valve top is a flat square bar about 2" long by 1/2" wide.

I know this because the key I made and used 25 years ago, is sized for that type of valve top.

If you unscrew that cap you just get mains water pressure in the face.

Its definitely a cap, the more you unscrew it the more water leaks out & when you screw it down it comes to a stop and there's no leakage.

So its a cap, not a valve.

I've definitely turned the water off at the mains before.


View attachment 176155


If there's another access point, I can't see it.

I had similar to you last year, still can't find the outside stopcock but I did find a solution that I hope may help. Clean off all the paint and crud using a paint stripper or heat. On the top of the internal stopcock you should find a smaller nut (the gland nut) on the shaft below the handle. Give it a blast of WD40 or penetrating oil and after a few minutes try to turn that nut. It doesn't take a lot, literally fractions of a turn and the leak should stop. This is probably what your plumber did years ago.
https://www.yourrepair.co.uk/blog/how-to-fix-a-leaking-stopcock

 

[imageel]

As others have mentioned, you do have I think a time limited option to switch back should it not work out for your needs.
I must admit I have been struggling trying to work out why mine has been creeping up and in my latest bill Anglian Water report I am using 24% more than similar dwellings in the area - I had a complete re-plumb 8y ago from the pavement stopcock to my house so am pretty sure there are no leaks, but I am suspicious because as a sole occupant I know my usage month on month has not altered significantly,
Here is the graph of my recent readings -

 

[Trextr7monkey]

As others have mentioned, you do have I think a time limited option to switch back should it not work out for your needs.
I must admit I have been struggling trying to work out why mine has been creeping up and in my latest bill Anglian Water report I am using 24% more than similar dwellings in the area - I had a complete re-plumb 8y ago from the pavement stopcock to my house so am pretty sure there are no leaks, but I am suspicious because as a sole occupant I know my usage month on month has not altered significantly,
Here is the graph of my recent readings -
View attachment 176191

Check toilet lava’s many now have no visible overflow excess water just sneaks down the pan if running 24/7 this can cause increased water consumption. Worth a check

 

[imageel]

Check toilet lava’s many now have no visible overflow excess water just sneaks down the pan if running 24/7 this can cause increased water consumption. Worth a check

Thanks- mine are of that type but don't appear to be the culprits... - will have to open up some manholes when the weather is better and take a peek to look for stuff escaping !!

 

[Crazy Dave]

As others have mentioned, you do have I think a time limited option to switch back should it not work out for your needs.
I must admit I have been struggling trying to work out why mine has been creeping up and in my latest bill Anglian Water report I am using 24% more than similar dwellings in the area - I had a complete re-plumb 8y ago from the pavement stopcock to my house so am pretty sure there are no leaks, but I am suspicious because as a sole occupant I know my usage month on month has not altered significantly,
Here is the graph of my recent readings -
View attachment 176191

I would be reasonably sure that you have a leak.
My water main into the house started leaking and I had no idea that it was happening until one night I couldn't sleep and was just sitting downstairs surfing the web when I thought I could hear water fizzing (the sound when you have a leaky garden hose) but it was so quiet that I couldn't locate it so assuming that it was nextdoor I ignored it.
Weeks later, again I couldn't sleep, this time it was louder and I could track the sound to the under stairs cupboard but it then sounded like the water was running in the pipe, I searched for a tap that might be on, nope. The next morning I went into the loft to see if the ballcock had stuck open but no.
During the day with all the hub hub going on I couldn't hear anything.

It turned out that yes there's a leak from the water main into the house caused by the idiots who did the installation when the house was built in 1979.
The main pipe was too short to reach under the kitchen sink which is where the stopcock was supposed to be so the dimwits doubled the pipe over and ran it back to the under stairs cupboard, why they didn't cut it to length is a mystery but the pipe started leaking on the bend a very long time ago underground and in fact had created a void where the leak was.
The repair was done by running a new pipe from the meter in the front garden to the stopcock under the stars.
The old pipe which is still under the kitchen floor can't be accessed without digging the floor up so has been left there.

I had photos but I can't find them.

My point is don't assume anything, do an investigation even if it means paying for a plumber then get your money back from the insurance.

Dave.

 

[Spectric]

Once you find your external shut off valve then to verify a leak you need that pressure gauge, once fitted and reading a pressure then shut off your supply externally and see if the pressure falls. If it falls then this would show a leak, so repeat but shut off using your internal stop cock to determine whether the leak is within your property or external. If you have a leak then it needs to be sorted otherwise you could end up with structural issues as the water will undermine the foundations in some cases.

 

[dizjasta]

Another way to check the buried supply pipe to your property for leaks.
1. Fill a cup with water.
2. Turn off the water supply at the Utilities valve.
3. Dip outlet of cold tap into the cup of water.
4. Turn cold tap on.
If water level in cup falls then the supply pipeline in leaking under gravity and and the resulting vacuum is acting on cup water. The shortcoming is that the location of the fault is still unknown.

 

[Blackswanwood]

The rules are easy to find and not quite as simple as your one-liner would suggest:

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7342/

In particular, the 'area of serious water stress' is the route/rationale many water companies are currently following.

Thanks - I didn’t know it had changed and in some regions it can be compulsory to have a meter installed if DEFRA deem it necessary.

 

[Stevekane]

I had similar to you last year, still can't find the outside stopcock but I did find a solution that I hope may help. Clean off all the paint and crud using a paint stripper or heat. On the top of the internal stopcock you should find a smaller nut (the gland nut) on the shaft below the handle. Give it a blast of WD40 or penetrating oil and after a few minutes try to turn that nut. It doesn't take a lot, literally fractions of a turn and the leak should stop. This is probably what your plumber did years ago.
https://www.yourrepair.co.uk/blog/how-to-fix-a-leaking-stopcock

I would be too frightened to even look at that crappy old stopcock let alone start twisting things,,,for me thats one I would leave well alone, once you have found the water boards stopcock use that to do any work,,,if it started leaking its their worry. I read somwhere that the worry over lead pipes was misguided, apparently there will be a level of lead in the water untill the new lead pipe furs up a bit, once it has this coating its apparantly okay?
Steve.

 

[Spectric]

I read somwhere that the worry over lead pipes was misguided

How many years have we been using lead for pipework, cable sheathing and flashings, I think lead is ok for water but not anything slightly acidic like wine so not a concern.

 

[stevep]

How many years have we been using lead for pipework, cable sheathing and flashings, I think lead is ok for water but not anything slightly acidic like wine so not a concern.

Phosphoric Acid is dosed into the supply to ‘coat’ the lead piping . There’s still thousands, if not millions, of houses supplied by lead piping. I know mine is !

 

[Rhossydd]

I read somwhere that the worry over lead pipes was misguided, apparently there will be a level of lead in the water untill the new lead pipe furs up a bit, once it has this coating its apparantly okay?

This is my understanding of it. Old lead pipework will now have enough limescale in it to coat it and protect the water supply. It became illegal to use lead for water pipes in the UK from 1970, so they're all old now.
Risks only occur if the pipework is modified and new lead exposed.

 

[deema]

Well, my external stop tap is right in the middle of the road! No foot path, not many of those in Cheshire once your outside a town. I had to switch the water off when I replaced the internal stop tap. Beware, modern external mains water stop taps have often a security device, once switched off, you need a special tool to switch back on…..and the water company charge to do it, and it can take a while!! Friend of mine learnt that the hard way!!

 

[Bingy man]

Well, my external stop tap is right in the middle of the road! No foot path, not many of those in Cheshire once your outside a town. I had to switch the water off when I replaced the internal stop tap. Beware, modern external mains water stop taps have often a security device, once switched off, you need a special tool to switch back on…..and the water company charge to do it, and it can take a while!! Friend of mine learnt that the hard way!!

My post ( 12 ) shows what’s called a crutch head valve , also in the pics is the appropriate key to turn it off . @deema is this what you’re referring to as a security device. I can’t believe any water company would put residents in this situation especially in emergency’s when the leak is before the main stop tap in the house - and actually charge you to turn it back - talk about rip off Britain

 

[Fergie 307]

It’s not uncommon for older properties in Scotland to have a shared external stopcock. This may widen your search area and add some complication if you are turning it off.

I know someone who inadvertently switched off the water for twenty or so houses along his street …

Edited to correct typo!

Not just in Scotland, mines the same. The stop cock at the top of my drive cuts off the next three houses in the road as well!

 

[Fergie 307]

I've got a dicey main water valve in my house.

View attachment 176145

25 years ago I shut it off to change the kitchen tap and when I switched it back on, it leaked pretty badly.

I called a plumber and asked for it to be changed but its "lead" apparently (or the piping is) and plumbers don't do lead anymore.

The irony...

Anyway, the plumber did "something" to stop it leaking and after that I just shut it off in the street.

Fast forward about 20 years since I had to shut it off and I go out into the street, locate the cover, open it, wet vac the rubbish out and... no valve.

View attachment 176146

View attachment 176147

That's a blanking cap for a test point.

The water shut off valve top is a flat square bar about 2" long by 1/2" wide.

I know this because the key I made and used 25 years ago, is sized for that type of valve top.

If you unscrew that cap you just get mains water pressure in the face.

Its definitely a cap, the more you unscrew it the more water leaks out & when you screw it down it comes to a stop and there's no leakage.

So its a cap, not a valve.

I've definitely turned the water off at the mains before.


View attachment 176155


If there's another access point, I can't see it.

Old stop puffins often drip for a bit when disturbed. Both mine and my dad's do this. I just leave a jug under it when turned back on, after a few hours it has stopped, and maybe an egg cup full of water in the jug.

 

[Fergie 307]

Site obviously doesn't like stop c***s so you get puffins instead. Gave me a grin.

 

[trvlr]

I'm not entirely across all of this thread - but... Having had meter installed (a couple of years back) after year's try and see if you want to keep it... (If I didn't keep it my bill would have been increased significantly thereafter regardless of how much/little I may/will use.) Being a single occupancy home these days it has made deal of difference... I think it reduced by "at least 50%" compared to pre metering and certainly compared to what they would have charged if not on a meter post try & see period of one year.

My street shut off valve on the meter assembly is user friendly and easily access/operated as/when required.

When the old street valve was present a standard T-bar key was fine.I had (still have) both designs (end fittings).

Years back I fitted a copper to lead converter/adapter (compression on to the lead pipe) to the incoming supply so as to replace the usual seized up SOB internal stop cock.

If one isn't happy to fit such an adapter then one has to get a decent plumber (if one can find one) to do it for you. And perhaps also resolve the street key access via the water supplier in your area? Essential to know where that street key/valve is at all times; and know it's easily accessible etc..

My house has two in-house stop valves; one in the kitchen, and one for the rest of the house...

When it comes to meters, if they can't fit one for various reasons - e.g. near impossible to actually physically fit it...; shared distribution; or more than one feed around the property (e.g. a wash house separate from main building which was my Mum's house's situation...) then they usually give reduced tariff approximating typical usage for the number of residents in the property. Two of my neighbours are on a shared distribution... So no meters on the aforementioned situations.

One tip... if fitting a new in-house stop valve(s). Include a drain down point just above/after it aa to be able to back drain the feed going wherever (typically upstairs...). But do ensure there is check valve between that and the actual stop valve so as to comply with regs relating to back flow into incoming supply. Thus stop valve >> check valve >> drain point >> pipe feeding onto wherever.