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RobinBHM

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Y'know, it's gotten so bad watching some of the coverage of all this in the last few years, that it's genuinely nice when someone doesn't confuse Ireland and Northern Ireland
I did, my apologies!

I guess I tend to think of the Island of Ireland made up of Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland....but I understand that is incorrect.

I imagine Brexit also damages Ireland, not just NI? Although I think trade with UK is less than with EU and USA.
 

MarkDennehy

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I guess I tend to think of the Island of Ireland made up of Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland....but I understand that is incorrect.
Well, it's not the worst I've ever heard. The phrase "The island of Ireland" gets used over here to signify the entire physical island, as in the geographical entity. But "Ireland" is the official name of the republic; if you say "the republic of Ireland" we know what you mean but nobody here calls it that really. I mean, unless they're taking the mickey to get a rise out of you, that is :D

I imagine Brexit also damages Ireland, not just NI? Although I think trade with UK is less than with EU and USA.
It does, mainly for logistical reasons because the land bridge goes away and because a lot of small businesses like timber yards were dealing with distribution hubs in the UK rather than the continent due to the size of the local markets here. Where margins were thin already, that's really bad news. The trade with the UK is less of an issue these days - in the 1970s something like 90% of our trade was with the UK but it was about 11% in 2019. That's for goods, mind, for services it was lower, about 7% in 2019. Most of our trade these days is overwhelmingly with the EU with the US a closeish second.
Northern Ireland is in a much more exposed position with regard to trade than we are I'm afraid, things are not looking good for them at the moment.
 

billw

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Well, it's not the worst I've ever heard. The phrase "The island of Ireland" gets used over here to signify the entire physical island, as in the geographical entity. But "Ireland" is the official name of the republic; if you say "the republic of Ireland" we know what you mean but nobody here calls it that really. I mean, unless they're taking the mickey to get a rise out of you, that is :D
I've always assumed Ireland to mean the RoI in sovereign state terms, and the geographical entity to be the Island of Ireland. So I guess that holds true over the other side of the Irish Sea too :)
 

sploo

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Currently you canny, unless for good/essential reason, cause of C-19. Police/Garda checkpoints most of the time. A green card to indicate insurance compliance has been needed since Jan 1st. Other than that no difference, CTA etc. Oh and lots of smuggling, both ways, on goods etc. Imagine the people traffickers will get busy soon....
.
Yep, I can see that working really well. Nothing in the history of the ROI/NI border to suggest that police checkpoints will cause any problems eh 😬

If only someone had pointed out before the vote that it might have been an issue. Ahem.


Imagine the carnage when an independent Scotland joins the EU.
Whilst there's apparently all sorts of issues with joining, I wouldn't blame the other EU nations for bending/relaxing the rules to allow Scotland in quickly. If nothing else but for a laugh against Westminster.

I was going to make a comment/joke about Scotland wanting to join the EU in order to protect food standards; given that parliament has (last night) voted to effectively allow changes to food safety regulation without consultation. But then I realised the Scots eat haggis, so that's probably a moot point ;)
 

Droogs

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no different to tripe sploo, but joshing aside the vote is a major problem for uk producers. they still need to comply with EU grade rules to sell in uk and europe but ROW can now give us slops and pretend its sirloin
 

sploo

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no different to tripe sploo, but joshing aside the vote is a major problem for uk producers. they still need to comply with EU grade rules to sell in uk and europe but ROW can now give us slops and pretend its sirloin
Yep. It's (yet) another one of those Project Fear/never going to happen/just whinging remoaners things that was warned about (multiple times). Surprise surprise it's now being quietly put into place.

Still, I rather like haggis. Not so sure about tripe. Or rat hair in my pasta.
 

MarkDennehy

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Yep, I can see that working really well. Nothing in the history of the ROI/NI border to suggest that police checkpoints will cause any problems eh 😬
Well, those checkpoints aren't on the border at the moment. We're all in a level five lockdown in Ireland and similarly Northern Ireland is locked down as well, the checkpoints are internal to each country enforcing the lockdowns.
The cross-border traffic is a wholly separate, way more complex issue.
 

Richard_C

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We have started off down the slippery slope much sooner than I thought. Food standards decisions are now in the hands of Ministers, no parliamentary scrutiny, and BEIS has announced a review of employment regulations, unsurprisingly consulting first with large business. So much for Parliamentary Sovereignty. You could see it coming when the Government took the 'enshrined protections' clauses out of the withdrawal bill and pushed it through the Commons with 'its this or nothing' arguments.

One bugbear for BEIS is the package of working time regulations which are wholly, and when ministers are speaking willfully, misunderstood. They don't stop people working as many hours as they want, they stop employers forcing people to work more than 48 hours in a week. Big difference, and record keeping isn't necessary unless the employee asks. With rising unemployment surely its better for the nation to employ more people than it is to increase the hours of those in employment.

Ken Clarke, admittedly a pro-European remainer, who held most of the great offices of State and is respected by all sides identified Ireland and the border as being the biggest irreconcilable problem in Brexit. It really is irreconcilable and no-one wants, but we might all get, the 'troubles' returning. Troubles is an understatement. In pessimistic moments I can see the UK Government, under pressure from Stormont, bending the "Irish Sea non- border" arrangements so much that the EU shouts foul. The EU start border checks, making them the bad guys here, and it all goes bad. The Good Friday Agreement as its called is an international treaty and includes an open border guarantee, made possible by our EU membership or at least by our membership of the customs union. Sometime between the referendum and the implementation, a vote for EU withdrawal was turned into a mandate to leave the single market and the customs union as well so what we have is self-inflicted.

Once Covid restrictions are gone, I have no idea how the cross border movement of people will be managed - can an EU citizen (say a plumber from Spain) legitimately living and working in Ireland, go to Belfast and do some work there for a few days? And how would anybody know, unless you start border ID checks, and there the real trouble starts.

NI is fairly unimportant economically (population England 56m, Scotland 5.5m, Wales 3.1m, NI 1.8m, GDP: 1.8 Tn, 160Bn, 75Bn, 50Bn) but often important politically. Most recently the DUP kept May in power and in the 'wafer thin majority' years of Heath, Wilson, Callaghan they or their predecessors were vital. The GDP figures are a bit distorted because so many companies have their head office in London so results are reported there. I'm sure that's why the Johnson Government agreed to such a fudge - if it goes wrong who cares? But they deserve better.

Interestingly the NI population is on average the youngest of the 4 nations by far, perhaps in 5 years time they will see that their future lies as some kind of self-governing region within Ireland and as full EU members. I wonder if constitutionally the 6 counties could be associate members of the Commonwealth? Difficult perhaps.

Some think its a great relief to be out of the EU, others including me see nothing but difficulties and have nothing but regret. As a pensioner when the referendum happened it's too late for me to emigrate, If my adult children leave the country I will be sad but will understand.

Meanwhile, I'm glad I'm not having to cope with buying much in the way of materials and equipment that has to cross a real or imaginary border. Good luck to those of you who need to to keep your businesses going.

We are where we are.
 

rafezetter

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N Ireland was an insolvable problem, Theresa May had at least a modicum of integrity and wouldn't allow the United Kingdom to to be broken up.

Johnson had no such scruples, he simply threw NI under a bus in order to get power.

Johnson quite simply lied...he said there would be unfettered access and kept repeating it.

Apparently in modern politics if you lie big you can win big.

Current govt motto is: never explain, never back down, never apologise.


Now we have more gaslighting: the pro Brexit side are dismissing issues as "teething troubles".....some are, many are permanent increases in paperwork, delays, costs.
While I don't disagree things are not great at the moment, and I made no attempt to deny them, the absolute truth is all of this still sits on the EU's doorstep - in 1979 the UK entered into a "free trade agreement" for TRADE AND ONLY TRADE.

Brussels in thier "wisdom" made it about more than that, because they were quite happy to listen to lobbyists from spain france portugal etc about how envious they were of the UK's fishing industry, as just one example of those on the other side - stakign a claim in what was not rightfully thiers under the guise of "well we are a union now, so you have to do as we say or we'll revoke your "free trade".

and they then continued to use that stick to beat us, for thier own monetary and political gain for the next 40 years.

it constantly amazes me just how ignorant remainers and pro EU people are of the REAL information about how the EU evolved from simply being about FREE TRADE ACROSS BORDERS WITHOUT RED TAPE OR TARIFF, to the behemoth it now is.

BOTH sides voted based on lies in many areas, BUT the reality is the EU is the one that decided that they wanted more than what the original agreement offered.

We COULD have gone back to the original precepts, but the EU are greedy now, they have become like the gold digger wife "accustomed to a certain lifestyle" from our monetary contributions, so without that PERMAMENTLY left to continue (instead of the reducing scale we now have) they weren't interested in accomodating our requests for free trade - EVEN at the expense of the reduced trade with the UK of their own member states.

"Cut off nose to spite face" has never been more accurate.

But as I've said elsewhere and will repeat, anyone who thinks the EU is a "united" group of countries is an silly person, there are just as many issues of division inside it today as before - more probably, now that some countries have seen the REAL true colours of the leadership.

I and many other brexiteers I've spoken to firmly beleive it will either tear itself apart in the next 50 years, OR it will become another USSR, leaving NATO make it's OWN ARMY (the idea is already floating about) and become something very sinister indeed, those on the fence like Norway will be told "in or out" and it may** even come to armed conflict as it seeks to expand it's powerbase and conflicts with China's own expansionist policies.

The cynical might say it almost sounds like a carbon copy of 1939 - which wouldn't be a surprise considering the reality of where the blueprint for the EU came from; and anyone whom denies this hypothesis to be clearly self evidentially true, clearly hasn't read that pithy document of world domination either, they are essentially identical.

** probably will - this is human beings involved after all.

Why people think the EU is an altruistic system "for the benefit of all" is beyond my understanding - the very fact that it has closed trade borders with THE REST OF THE 170 ODD COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD, speaks VOLUMES about the introverted nature of it.

The facts are undeniable
 

billw

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Yep. It's (yet) another one of those Project Fear/never going to happen/just whinging remoaners things that was warned about (multiple times). Surprise surprise it's now being quietly put into place.

Still, I rather like haggis. Not so sure about tripe. Or rat hair in my pasta.
This is one of the biggest issues we are going to have. If we allow US imports then they'll drive down the price (if anyone buys them, I won't) and UK producers will either have to choose to compete with them domestically on price, or stick to EU quality so they can export. Let's face it we are going to sell ZERO agri products to the USA. It's absolutely one-way traffic.

Unbelievable that people still love good old Boris, oh he's such a character, look at that lovely hair, oooh he's proper British he is.

Farcical.
 

sploo

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Brussels in thier "wisdom" made it about more than that, because they were quite happy to listen to lobbyists from spain france portugal etc about how envious they were of the UK's fishing industry, as just one example of those on the other side - stakign a claim in what was not rightfully thiers under the guise of "well we are a union now, so you have to do as we say or we'll revoke your "free trade".
The UK fishing industry sold its quotas to foreign owned firms. That's rather different to staking a claim on something that's not rightfully theirs.

and they then continued to use that stick to beat us, for thier own monetary and political gain for the next 40 years.
"They" were us. The EU was "us"; it wasn't a game of UK vs EU; we were a member state. We also gained financially by being part of that trading zone.

BOTH sides voted based on lies in many areas, BUT the reality is the EU is the one that decided that they wanted more than what the original agreement offered.
I wanted the one that allowed free movement of people and easy trade across borders (which is facilitated by sharing regulation and rules).

But as I've said elsewhere and will repeat, anyone who thinks the EU is a "united" group of countries is an silly person, there are just as many issues of division inside it today as before - more probably, now that some countries have seen the REAL true colours of the leadership.
Of course there are disagreements; that'll happen in any club or organisation. The critical thing is trying to work together; rather than being on the outside, throwing stones in.

I and many other brexiteers I've spoken to firmly beleive it will either tear itself apart in the next 50 years, OR it will become another USSR, leaving NATO make it's OWN ARMY (the idea is already floating about) and become something very sinister indeed, those on the fence like Norway will be told "in or out" and it may** even come to armed conflict as it seeks to expand it's powerbase and conflicts with China's own expansionist policies.
You've just claimed the EU isn't a united group of countries, and then claimed it might initiate armed conflict against others. Do I need to explain the collision of realities there?

The cynical might say it almost sounds like a carbon copy of 1939 - which wouldn't be a surprise considering the reality of where the blueprint for the EU came from; and anyone whom denies this hypothesis to be clearly self evidentially true, clearly hasn't read that pithy document of world domination either, they are essentially identical.
That's now firmly descended into tin foil hat madness; and (having some German family) is also pretty distasteful.


Why people think the EU is an altruistic system "for the benefit of all" is beyond my understanding - the very fact that it has closed trade borders with THE REST OF THE 170 ODD COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD, speaks VOLUMES about the introverted nature of it.
The EU is a system for the benefit of those who are members (accepting the members themselves will always have internal disagreements - just like any trading block). It is "open" within the trading block - just like any other trading block.
 

Richard_C

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Don't we all just love shouting in capitals.

The EU is a very big parliamentary democracy, not an evil empire. It has an ideology that balances trade and business with the rights of its citizens.

That parliament works on consensus, no single country and no single political group dominates. Unlike winner takes all fptp governments, coalition and consensus weeds out the kind of extremism you think you see. That frustrates those who seek to wield unfettered power and ultimately that frustration led to Brexit.

The EU wields economic and diplomatic power but has no tank divisions.

We, the UK, were part of that democracy. We elected MEPs, and if turnout in those elections was dismal that is our fault not theirs. We, UK citizens, were better protected as citizens, workers and consumers than ever before.

If you think we are better looked after and will have a fairer society under Johnson and his cabal than we were under EU rules, good for you. You can enjoy your future. But to equate the EU with the rise of Fascism in 1939 is a wilful distortion.
 

Droogs

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Re Rafezette'rs post: - Sounds exactly like a modern interpretation of the creation of the union of the kingdoms of Great Britain to eventually make the UK. No different to the story of the unification of Germany, from 300 little kingdoms into one modern nation. This is how human society evolves socio-politically. from village to town to a collection of towns to a county to a collection of counties to a country. The EU is evolving in the same manner, just at much faster pace and with a lot less bloodshed.
After all there would have been no English/Scottish union if the English hadn't applied the samesort of draconnian trading rules you are moaning about to Scotland - forbidding any oversees English colony from trading with Scotland or any of its attempts at creating a colony on pain of death. Forcing the country into bankruptcy (sound familiar) and then basically paying to take over. At least brussels give you a chance to object

edit typos
 
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brocher

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Thought you might like to see a reply I got from Dieter Schmid in Berlin today about Brexit

"
Thank you for your inquiry.

Corona, Brexit all these issues have stressed our normal business. We have to reorganize our shipping modalities to the UK. But before we have to clear up several fiscal details regarding customs clearance and taxes. It’s a very sophisticated process and we have to pay much attention to all the new regulations.

For this reason, we have decided that the only way to avoid a number of problems is to temporarily suspend shipments to the UK.

We sincerely hope that this unpleasant situation will be of short duration and that we will soon be able to resume supplying our valued UK customers.

We can only apologise for the inconvenience caused.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best Regards / cordiali saluti

Vincenzo Ballacchino


--
Dieter Schmid Werkzeuge GmbH
Wilhelm-von-Siemens-Str. 23
12277 Berlin
Germany"
 

RobinBHM

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The facts are undeniable
I am sure you won't be surprised when I say disagree with pretty much all of your post....I won't respond to any specific point as Sploo has posted a reply that mirrors the points I would've made.

However, I would just like to say; thank you for your effort in posting, I did read and consider everything you wrote.


Because the UK is an island off mainland Europe, I think the public has never felt a part of the European Union and the vast majority of English people have very little idea what the European Union does and how much we were actually a part of it.

Did you know that the UK played a pivotal role in the creation of the Single Market?

Not only that but the UK has played a big role in many many EU decisions over the years

And the UK had more opt outs than any other EU nation.


The EU has many faults but goodness me they are out numbered by the Brexit destination
 

brocher

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Just to add how Government is making it simple for all our businesses to trade!!! It all looks so simple doesn't it!! Brexit
 

Argus

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Following the recent discussions here about buying stuff from the EU - it used to be a piece of cake - here's an article on the current state of affairs that cropped up in today's Grauniad:

 

Cheshirechappie

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I understand that some people have strong feelings about Brexit and it's ramifications, but could we keep political threads in the Off Topic section, and the rest of the forum politics free please? There are already at least two threads running in the Off Topic section on post-Brexit trade matters - do we really need more?
 
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