I’ve a work shop about about 24 sq meters,I would like to run a duct system 4 inch ,to use on my Router/Saw Table,Large Woodturning Lathe,,Sander etc,I’m looking a good strong system,and quiet as possible,I’m prepared to pay good money,to achieve a clean a workshop as possible,All advice appreciated.
Best Dust Extraction System
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Doug B
Shy Tot
My workshop is 20 sq metres & when I first set it up around 19 years ago I put a ducted system in, over the years as the workshop evolved I found the the ducted system to be way too restrictive.
I came to the conclusion a short piece of metal duct from the extractor at one end of the shop to a central point on on side of the shop then a 4m length of flexible hose that would reach all my machines was the best way for me.
It means if I have to move a machine to enable me to work on a long piece of timber the extraction will simply move to the machine. All my machines are on casters as I’ve packed in a lot into the workshop so the flexibility a single hose gives me works really well & it doesn’t take up valuable wall space that my ducted system did.
I came to the conclusion a short piece of metal duct from the extractor at one end of the shop to a central point on on side of the shop then a 4m length of flexible hose that would reach all my machines was the best way for me.
It means if I have to move a machine to enable me to work on a long piece of timber the extraction will simply move to the machine. All my machines are on casters as I’ve packed in a lot into the workshop so the flexibility a single hose gives me works really well & it doesn’t take up valuable wall space that my ducted system did.
Inspector
Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck!
If you want to pull dust from a lathe you will need a system that can utilize 6"/150mm ducting. 3hp would be a minimum.
Bill Pentz has a site with a lot of information and it will take you many hours to read it all. I strongly suggest you wade through it including the repeated parts. http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.php
Here is an example of why a 6"/150mm duct is desired. The bell mouth hood is the most effective shape.
Pete
What Pete said.
6" or bigger duct, 2kW+ extractor, keep your duct smooth with radiussed bends, keep flex hose to the very minimum - 1m at the extractor end, 1m at each machine.
Additionally, the router and other hand tools will need a shop vac, nvd750 or camvac. If you get a canister type, spend the money and get a quiet 2 motor one. They are more versatile and nicer to live with.
Search the past threads, we have had lots of discussion of dust extraction even in just the last few months. The question has been asked many times and all the answers are there.
6" or bigger duct, 2kW+ extractor, keep your duct smooth with radiussed bends, keep flex hose to the very minimum - 1m at the extractor end, 1m at each machine.
Additionally, the router and other hand tools will need a shop vac, nvd750 or camvac. If you get a canister type, spend the money and get a quiet 2 motor one. They are more versatile and nicer to live with.
Search the past threads, we have had lots of discussion of dust extraction even in just the last few months. The question has been asked many times and all the answers are there.
Or you were using an extractor without enough capacity to move the air required, a 3Kw motor driving a fan is not very big at all when it comes to moving a large mass of air through a restrictive filter.
Doug B
Shy Tot
It was nothing to do with the extractor, a small workshop with quite a few machines needs to be flexible, as an example I recently needed to run out a hand rail to match an existing one. The rail was nearly 4m long so I had to move both my planer & then my spindle moulder into the centre of the workshop to be able to machine such a long length.
If I’d been on my original fixed ducted system I would have had to dismantle parts of the ducting to rig it to the machine in use as both machines can’t be positioned in the middle of the shop at the same time.
As it is now I could just wheel the machines on their casters to the centre of the shop, hook up the flexible hose & get on with machining.
The 5” hose I use can be seen in both photos & extracts very well from the 5 machines I hook it up to.
I work in several large workshops that have fixed ducted systems & they work brilliantly but there isn’t the need to move machines to process timber as there is plenty of space around each machine so fixed ducting works but in a small workshop you need flexibility & fixed ducting didn’t give me that.
Edit spot on @Doug71,our posts crossed
Jacob
New Luddism. Wake up and resist.
Ollie78
Established Member
I have a record power dx500 in about the middle of my workshop, I have been meaning to plumb in a proper duct system for many years but never got around to it.
I have a 10m length of nice quality 100mm flex hose which can reach to any machine in the workshop as needed.
Thinking about the reason I have not spent the time and effort (and money ) to do it "properly" is because it actually works very well and is very quick to change. If I do a bunch of planing then move to the spindle moulder I just move the hose with me. If I set up ducting I would need to open and close blast gates etc which is probably the same amount of effort to do but would cost hundreds of pounds and a couple of days work to set up.
I have a limited space and so all my machines are on wheels except the table saw, so this method is good for that reason also.
Maybe just do my method for a bit and you will learn your working pattern in the space and could then add ducts and gates if you need to.
Ollie
I have a 10m length of nice quality 100mm flex hose which can reach to any machine in the workshop as needed.
Thinking about the reason I have not spent the time and effort (and money ) to do it "properly" is because it actually works very well and is very quick to change. If I do a bunch of planing then move to the spindle moulder I just move the hose with me. If I set up ducting I would need to open and close blast gates etc which is probably the same amount of effort to do but would cost hundreds of pounds and a couple of days work to set up.
I have a limited space and so all my machines are on wheels except the table saw, so this method is good for that reason also.
Maybe just do my method for a bit and you will learn your working pattern in the space and could then add ducts and gates if you need to.
Ollie
In my last place we had a basic jet extractor(*750m³/hr connected to a 15" thicknesser, It handled it fine(even wide boards), and only blocked when the bag was full, and by full i mean i worked with a load of lazy so and so's who shirked the responsibility of emptying it. So the bag was so packed full when you took it off it was chippings all over the place
If a basic extractor can handle a 15" thicknesser, I should think a bigger version should be able to handle multiple machines run in a system
No offence to Pete, he knows what he's talking about, only what it says and does on paper isnt necessarily the same of how it works in practise. So check out you tube and see what people are using to set up a 100mm system for a small workshop on there. There will be long term reviews wil give you a better idea.
I suppose its down to knowing what a machine will happily extract on rather than what it says on paper such and such is rated for.
I bought the bigger axminster workshop extractor(AW153E), which according to their info -1,165 m³/hr @ 100 mm (33-40 m/s) / 1,730 m³/hr @ 125 mm (27-38 m/s) and tbh i dont think anyone can definitively say they are out and out lying, because they will have tested it.
I've run it, and the air suction through the 100mm hose is CONSIDERABLY greater than the suction we got on the small jet above. I think connected to 125mm ducting, with 100mm flexible hose to each machine, it would be more than sufficient.
Unfortunately I need to replace it as the actual machine size is too large for my small workspace, and I've just bought their AP50E which according to the bumpf is 920m³/hr, which i reckon connected to one machine at a time is more than enough. because if the Jet 750m³/hr(or less because it was an older model) can work with an industrial thicknesser, 920m³/hr is going to work on any of the machines I have(record power/small ax saw, power tools etc). Even the drum sander @63mm
If a basic extractor can handle a 15" thicknesser, I should think a bigger version should be able to handle multiple machines run in a system
No offence to Pete, he knows what he's talking about, only what it says and does on paper isnt necessarily the same of how it works in practise. So check out you tube and see what people are using to set up a 100mm system for a small workshop on there. There will be long term reviews wil give you a better idea.
I suppose its down to knowing what a machine will happily extract on rather than what it says on paper such and such is rated for.
I bought the bigger axminster workshop extractor(AW153E), which according to their info -1,165 m³/hr @ 100 mm (33-40 m/s) / 1,730 m³/hr @ 125 mm (27-38 m/s) and tbh i dont think anyone can definitively say they are out and out lying, because they will have tested it.
I've run it, and the air suction through the 100mm hose is CONSIDERABLY greater than the suction we got on the small jet above. I think connected to 125mm ducting, with 100mm flexible hose to each machine, it would be more than sufficient.
Unfortunately I need to replace it as the actual machine size is too large for my small workspace, and I've just bought their AP50E which according to the bumpf is 920m³/hr, which i reckon connected to one machine at a time is more than enough. because if the Jet 750m³/hr(or less because it was an older model) can work with an industrial thicknesser, 920m³/hr is going to work on any of the machines I have(record power/small ax saw, power tools etc). Even the drum sander @63mm
thikone
Established Member
My requirements were similar and I also needed quiet machines. Found one dust extractor with maximum 69-70 dB - AL-KO Power Unit 120. It has also fine filter in it. There are similar ones made by other brands, like Metabo. Felder had RL series dust extractor of similar nature.
I bought that AL-KO unit because it fits through my doors. Felder machines did not. Also it does take more space than some custom cyclone based solutions where people put them on wall and in the corner. I have a smaller room of only 3.2x3.6 meters and I have to move band saw or planer-thiknesser often...
I bought that AL-KO unit because it fits through my doors. Felder machines did not. Also it does take more space than some custom cyclone based solutions where people put them on wall and in the corner. I have a smaller room of only 3.2x3.6 meters and I have to move band saw or planer-thiknesser often...
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johnnyb
Established Member
I definitely didn't set out to get the "ultimate" dust system. But I finished with a reasonable fixed solution. I take some pics tomorrow. Its basically one of the axminster short cyclone machines. Maybe a 2000 so 2kw. It's got an 8 inch outlet split into 2×100mm. It's central on a run so splits 2 ways into the clear 4 inch plastic ducts. All the bends are black plastic with gates. It's definitely not a professional set up. But it does seem fairly balanced. So 2kw works with maybe 6m of duct when the relevant gates are shut. 3kw wouldn't give much greater waft through 100mm. The clear smooth pipe punches well above its cost even if the gates aren't as robust as they could be.
Disadvantages are It's quite noisy but I use muffs. You have to bang the filter regularly to keep it clear. The bins not huge so no good for bigger set ups really. But OK for a smaller shop. I paid £700 for the lot used with spare plastic pipe and fittings. It's serves a 12 inch p/t, a table saw, spindle, bandsaw, tenoner.
Disadvantages are It's quite noisy but I use muffs. You have to bang the filter regularly to keep it clear. The bins not huge so no good for bigger set ups really. But OK for a smaller shop. I paid £700 for the lot used with spare plastic pipe and fittings. It's serves a 12 inch p/t, a table saw, spindle, bandsaw, tenoner.
johnnyb
Established Member
The worst extraction is from the table saw. Everything else is fine. Before this I had a single bag extractor(with a felt bag) wheeled around and it worked fine but everything got covered in fine dust which concerned me to be honest hence the upgrade.
Central on a run is great, but 8" port adapted into 2x4" is choking it. A proper match would be 2x5.5" so ideally step down to 6" duct or 5" at a pinch. Whatever works for you is good, but just remove the 2 to 1 adapter for 5 minutes and run the extractor to see how much air it's capable of moving...
johnnyb
Established Member
But it came with this adaptor and the split means it goes 2 ways.
Yeah. That tells you everything you need to know. The guys selling these don't understand and don't care. Either 2x4" is wrong or 8" is oversize. Which model is it ?
A few years ago, I played with a big axminster extractor, with the cyclone, the pull out barrel, cartridge filter and flappy paddle thing. It was a 2kW as I recall. Fabulous airflow with just the fan, but fit the filter and choked into 4" clear ducts just like yours with three 90 bends each leg it was pathetic. 15' run and it was worse than my old elektra beckum plastic thing.
Don't take my word. Take off the filter and take off the reducer. Feel the airflow That the fan makes. It's a gale.
Then as you put it back together, feel the airflow reduce. You need an installation that is clean, simple, smooth and with large bores to get the best out of an HVLP. Fine filter cartridges are nice but unless they are big and kept clean, they really reduce airflow.
A few years ago, I played with a big axminster extractor, with the cyclone, the pull out barrel, cartridge filter and flappy paddle thing. It was a 2kW as I recall. Fabulous airflow with just the fan, but fit the filter and choked into 4" clear ducts just like yours with three 90 bends each leg it was pathetic. 15' run and it was worse than my old elektra beckum plastic thing.
Don't take my word. Take off the filter and take off the reducer. Feel the airflow That the fan makes. It's a gale.
Then as you put it back together, feel the airflow reduce. You need an installation that is clean, simple, smooth and with large bores to get the best out of an HVLP. Fine filter cartridges are nice but unless they are big and kept clean, they really reduce airflow.
Inspector
Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck!
Just because a manufacturer supplies a DC with some attachments doesn't mean they are a good thing to use. They usually provide them because the consumer wants to be able to no brain fit everything together. So they have 4" fitting at the DC to 4" hose/duct to the tool that has a 4" fitting, sized from some long ago standards that don't apply anymore. From end to end 4" cause it is easy and cheap. Not necessarily best.
First the Y at the cyclone sends in a reduced flow which will in effect strangle the cyclone and it won't separate well which is why the filters clog sooner. There really should be a straight duct 4 to 6 diameters long (using the 8" diameter) to the cyclone for the incoming air to straighten out and enter the cyclone without the turbulence (reduces separation) you get from the supplied Y.
The 2Kw DC won't handle much more air than a 6" duct can supply and maybe less. Mentioned before but a 4" duct moves roughly 400cfm because of the surface drag of the walls to cross sectional area. A 5" flows 800cfm and a 6" at most 1200cfm. You'll have to do the conversions if you want to look at metric numbers.
Manufactures also exaggerate or present some of the numbers that look best to look better than their competitor and get you to buy. The numbers they give are at best twice as much as the provided machine can supply. The industry standard for measuring the flow is just the motor, impeller, housing and a very short test duct to take a single reading in the middle of the airstream where the flow is the highest. Then they like to round up the number to look better. The numbers go down with the addition of fittings, filters, and the ducts/hoses leading into the DC.
Keep the ducting as large as the DC can support, open the machines to that duct size and make sure the machine has openings in it to 2 to 3 times the area of the duct drawing from it for make up air. Lastly minimize the use of flex hose as it has roughly 3 times the drag as a smooth duct.
Pete
First the Y at the cyclone sends in a reduced flow which will in effect strangle the cyclone and it won't separate well which is why the filters clog sooner. There really should be a straight duct 4 to 6 diameters long (using the 8" diameter) to the cyclone for the incoming air to straighten out and enter the cyclone without the turbulence (reduces separation) you get from the supplied Y.
The 2Kw DC won't handle much more air than a 6" duct can supply and maybe less. Mentioned before but a 4" duct moves roughly 400cfm because of the surface drag of the walls to cross sectional area. A 5" flows 800cfm and a 6" at most 1200cfm. You'll have to do the conversions if you want to look at metric numbers.
Manufactures also exaggerate or present some of the numbers that look best to look better than their competitor and get you to buy. The numbers they give are at best twice as much as the provided machine can supply. The industry standard for measuring the flow is just the motor, impeller, housing and a very short test duct to take a single reading in the middle of the airstream where the flow is the highest. Then they like to round up the number to look better. The numbers go down with the addition of fittings, filters, and the ducts/hoses leading into the DC.
Keep the ducting as large as the DC can support, open the machines to that duct size and make sure the machine has openings in it to 2 to 3 times the area of the duct drawing from it for make up air. Lastly minimize the use of flex hose as it has roughly 3 times the drag as a smooth duct.
Pete
If you have a look underneath you can see that due to the mitre ability of saws they arent well enclosed, and extraction is usually linked to a simple slot shaped box sitting under the blade, and it doesnt really enclose it very well as one side needs to be open for the saw to pivot.
I constructed a pram hood shaped cowl for my last saw. made it using polythene and bent coathanger wire for the ribs, all joined together at the ends with a nut and bolt, to allow them to pivot when the saw was canted over. It enclosed the open space surrounding the blade and made extraction far better.
woodmaker
Member
Does anyone know where you can buy a bell mouth like the one in the video posted above, please? I’ve searched and can’t find anything like it online.
