My first thread….table saw, sander and dust extractor….be gentle….

[Jfw2708]

Hi all,
probably one of the most asked questions on here…and one that has evaded my newbie search skills. So, having not done any woodworking since 3rd year woodwork class 40 years ago I’ve done a couple of days course with the excellent Nick at Wharfedale Workshop and I’m leaping into woodworking! I’ve bought some hand tools on eBay and thinking of getting a table saw (probs DeWalt 7485) and a random orbit sander…and maybe at some point a planer/thicknesser. So based on my woodworking space being in a part of a double garage (shared with our home gym and a few bikes..) and then fact i will be doing a few hobby projects what is the general consensus on dust extraction suggestions. Should i get a Henry? A big brand basic dust extractor….something else..? I’m not averse to spending money, being in the pay cheap, pay twice mentality, but also dont want to waste money on overkill equipment. Any advice to a confused newbie would be much appreciated. Thx.

 

[Spectric]

Well you are well located for the Harrogate woodworking show . Have you used the advanced search option on the forum, that may produce more results but initially you need to know what the projects will be or at least some idea as that will dictate the tools needed.

 

[Bingy man]

Welcome to the group - Agree with above -what projects you take on will dictate the tools you need - hand , power or machine tools or a combination of these . Also before going anywhere near large and potentially dangerous finger eating machines table saw planer thicknesser etc then read the safety posts on this forum - take notice of the lucky escapes some members have had and although some of these threads get a little heated it’s all about keeping us safe .. might sound crazy but had my dewalt job site for well over a week before I even switched it on . Spent hours setting it up and getting familiar with the adjustments .then made sure I had the relevant safety equipment , ppe . Now every time I use it I remember that 1st time and I follow the same procedure before turning on - hopefully I’ll never be in the situation as shown in a recent post by @BarbaraT -be safe and enjoy the journey

 

[bp122]

Hi there

Welcome to the forum.

Jumping straight into it, these would be my recommendations:

1. Random orbital sander: I bought a metabo 6" ROS 4 years ago upon recommendations from otger members here. Haven't looked back and it hasn't let me down. Marry them up with Mirka Abranet sanding discs and you are good to go.

2. Dust extractor: I wouldn't use the sander without a dust extractor. Sure, Henry works, or any shopvac if you want to do it on the cheap. These are HPLV (high pressure low volume) types. If you rig up a plastic cyclone seperatir, it would make your life a bit easier and prolong your filters. Top end option would be festool /Bosch etc.if you can spare the dosh.

3. Table saw: buy a good bandsaw. More capable than a table saw, safer, less noise and dust, can cut curves, can work with a shopvac (same one you have for your sander)
When I started I bought an Axminster cast iron hobby one, was an okay saw but it needed a separate chip extractor (shopvac will not be enough), was noisy, underpowered for thick hardwoods, even though less noisy compared to site saws like DeWalt, it's still noisy. And not as safe as a bandsaw. Then I sold my table saw and bought a record power bs400 bandsaw from a member here, best woodworking decision I made!

4. When you have recovered from your initial 3 purchases, research a good planer Thicknesser (record power, metabo hc260 equivalent if you want a good one
for not much money) or buy a beastley one if you fancy. You will need a chip extractor for this though.

This is what I would do if I were to do it all again. I'm sure others will have other experiences and opinions.

Best of luck!

 

[Jfw2708]

Thx for the advice so far, all food for thought. My projects will all most likely be small to begin with, boxes of various smallish sizes, small drawers, cabinets etc, chopping boards so nothing of any material size. i guess what im wrestling with is getting to the straight edges you need for stuff. For example a shooting board seems to be a great idea but how do i get straight edges on the wood to start with with hand tools.…but i guess thats another question! I will look into the bandsaw and extractor suggestions so many thanks. In the meantime its practice practice on some of the plane wood Ive ordered and hope to be delivered in a couple of weeks.

 

[bp122]

In that case, to begin with, you can't go wrong with 1 or 2 second hand planes, a method of sharpening (this is where you will spend most of the time and lose most of your sanity working out the best method!)

But once you get this sorted, planing becomes such a joy and you are going to see great results.

Watch a few videos on how to plane stuff true (checking for straightness, twist and square). People have their opinions but watching someone like Paul Sellers will give you an idea on the above topics as he rarely uses power tools. Not saying it's the best approach or anything but shows you the potential of what one can do if one applies the right principles even without the tools and gadgets we think we badly need to get the job done.

Then you can use the techniques to build yourself a shooting board (again, quite a few videos out there to make the simplest to the fanciest ones)

It's all about setting small goals, getting them right and then moving up to the next one, I find.

My journey has been a stark reminder to me that when I tried bridging the gap between the skills required and the results needed, I often had to spend more and more money buying the next tool to get there, more often than not realising that I had to learn how to do it properly anyway. So I would have saved myself the hassle, money and clutter.

 

[Jameshow]

In that case, to begin with, you can't go wrong with 1 or 2 second hand planes, a method of sharpening (this is where you will spend most of the time and lose most of your sanity working out the best method!)

But once you get this sorted, planing becomes such a joy and you are going to see great results.

Watch a few videos on how to plane stuff true (checking for straightness, twist and square). People have their opinions but watching someone like Paul Sellers will give you an idea on the above topics as he rarely uses power tools. Not saying it's the best approach or anything but shows you the potential of what one can do if one applies the right principles even without the tools and gadgets we think we badly need to get the job done.

Then you can use the techniques to build yourself a shooting board (again, quite a few videos out there to make the simplest to the fanciest ones)

It's all about setting small goals, getting them right and then moving up to the next one, I find.

My journey has been a stark reminder to me that when I tried bridging the gap between the skills required and the results needed, I often had to spend more and more money buying the next tool to get there, more often than not realising that I had to learn how to do it properly anyway. So I would have saved myself the hassle, money and clutter.

I would think you want a table saw doing those jobs.

If you have the space get a cast iron one.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/23535662...tixoXeJTeO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Here is one that might suit? Several others in BIN for £500

A wet and dry will suit a sander and saw but not a planner thicknesser planing a decent thickness off.

 

[paulrbarnard]

I would think you want a table saw doing those jobs.

If you have the space get a cast iron one.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/23535662...tixoXeJTeO&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Here is one that might suit? Several others in BIN for £500

A wet and dry will suit a sander and saw but not a planner thicknesser planing a decent thickness off.

Sorry @Jameshow I disagree. A table saw is not an essential tool for those tasks. It will make it easier/faster but it was only in the later 1800’s that they became common and not until the mid 1900’s that it became a hobbiest tool. Those tasks were carried out for generations before that.

@Jfw2708 If you want a powered saw a bandsaw can be a much more useful tool. If you get a decent sized one you can resaw material. Resawing, to me at least, is the task that benifits the most from power assistance. You can also use it for cutting to size and even cutting joints although, in my opinion, those are more fulfilling done by hand.

A lot comes down to why you are doing it. Is it the joy of making something and developing skills or is it the finished product that is your primary objective? If it is the first going down the hand tool route will bring you the most short term frustration and long term satisfaction if the product is the goal then you could power up all the way to a CNC. There is of course a happy medium and you will find what works best for you but don’t jump on the table saw bandwagon, influenced by YouTube influencers, unless you know you want to go that route.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I started out with one of these 15+ yrs ago, and while it’s not now my main dust extractor it is still going strong and can deal with most things.

https://www.recordpower.co.uk/product/fine-filter-50-litre-extractor-with-accessories--hplv
Personally I wouldn’t jump into buying machines without first mastering the hand skills to flatten and dimension timber. It can seem a bit daunting but once you start out it’s not that difficult after a bit of perseverance and practice. You will learn far more about wood and the basic skills are a good foundation for progressing into using machines.

If you want some good basic guidance on doing this I’d suggest taking a look at Paul Sellers stuff on YouTube. (He is a bit marmite but imho it’s worth forgiving the dogmatic style of delivery).

I’d definitely suggest a band saw is more useful than a table saw.

Is the Wharfedale Workshop Chris Tribe’s old place? I did a couple of courses with him and it’s great if someone has kept up his good work.

 

[Jfw2708]

I started out with one of these 15+ yrs ago, and while it’s not now my main dust extractor it is still going strong and can deal with most things.

https://www.recordpower.co.uk/product/fine-filter-50-litre-extractor-with-accessories--hplv
Personally I wouldn’t jump into buying machines without first mastering the hand skills to flatten and dimension timber. It can seem a bit daunting but once you start out it’s not that difficult after a bit of perseverance and practice. You will learn far more about wood and the basic skills are a good foundation for progressing into using machines.

If you want some good basic guidance on doing this I’d suggest taking a look at Paul Sellers stuff on YouTube. (He is a bit marmite but imho it’s worth forgiving the dogmatic style of delivery).

I’d definitely suggest a band saw is more useful than a table saw.

Is the Wharfedale Workshop Chris Tribe’s old place? I did a couple of courses with him and it’s great if someone has kept up his good work.

Yes it is….Nick has taken it over, albeit in a different location.

 

[Jfw2708]

Sorry @Jameshow I disagree. A table saw is not an essential tool for those tasks. It will make it easier/faster but it was only in the later 1800’s that they became common and not until the mid 1900’s that it became a hobbiest tool. Those tasks were carried out for generations before that.

@Jfw2708 If you want a powered saw a bandsaw can be a much more useful tool. If you get a decent sized one you can resaw material. Resawing, to me at least, is the task that benifits the most from power assistance. You can also use it for cutting to size and even cutting joints although, in my opinion, those are more fulfilling done by hand.

A lot comes down to why you are doing it. Is it the joy of making something and developing skills or is it the finished product that is your primary objective? If it is the first going down the hand tool route will bring you the most short term frustration and long term satisfaction if the product is the goal then you could power up all the way to a CNC. There is of course a happy medium and you will find what works best for you but don’t jump on the table saw bandwagon, influenced by YouTube influencers, unless you know you want to go that route.

The point on why im doing it has actually come more into focus seeing the replies, which have all been really useful. I actually want to do it to develop some woodworking skills as a hobby and to achieve something. Ive got lost in videos and tools and got away from why i wanted to do a course and get into it….which i suspect is an often made newbie mistake.

first thing i bought, was a jack plane off eBay for £75 and i got some Narex chisels and sharpeners from Mrs JFW2708 for CHristmas. Did some hand planing on some old wood that was knocking around the garage with my son on Boxing Day and the actual joy on getting something flat (ish) was a joy. I also made my first chisel holder out of some old pine to my own design yesterday (i would post a picture but it’s laughably bad so wont embarrass myself) using a very old black & decker workmate and some tools. Just doing that Showed me i need a good way to straighten things, protect against blow out when you are drilling holes through and soft wood splits along grain lines when you screw into it…..all joyful stuff to a mega beginner. took me about an hour or so with thinking about it, measuring, sawing etc, putting it together and refining it. if id had a table saw/bandsaw it would have taken half the time and I wouldn’t have learned anywhere near as much. Will be doing a better version in some hardwood and trying some dovetails when i get the wood.

So im going to go back to stick to basics, do some learning on hand tools and then work it out from there. I will get a radial sander (although we do have a mouse sander…any good for woodworking?) and some kind of extraction. i have watched Paul Sellers among others, Matt Eastlea also good and some very very talented but odd Eastern European chat wearing a flat cap. I have a lot to learn But it will hopefully be an interesting journey!

 

[bp122]

I would think you want a table saw doing those jobs.

I'm afraid I have to agree with @paulrbarnard and disagree with you, @Jameshow .

After selling the table saw, I realized I can saw so much better with my hand than I originally thought. And that too off a cheap Irwin saw I bought at Wickes for a fiver.

And table saw is good for certain things, but by no means essential. Plus it needs a much bigger extractor and lots of caution. For a new user, I certainly wouldn't recommend it.

But I know how seductive it is to watch American videos and wanting a tablesaw.

 

[Jfw2708]

In that case, to begin with, you can't go wrong with 1 or 2 second hand planes, a method of sharpening (this is where you will spend most of the time and lose most of your sanity working out the best method!)

But once you get this sorted, planing becomes such a joy and you are going to see great results.

Watch a few videos on how to plane stuff true (checking for straightness, twist and square). People have their opinions but watching someone like Paul Sellers will give you an idea on the above topics as he rarely uses power tools. Not saying it's the best approach or anything but shows you the potential of what one can do if one applies the right principles even without the tools and gadgets we think we badly need to get the job done.

Then you can use the techniques to build yourself a shooting board (again, quite a few videos out there to make the simplest to the fanciest ones)

It's all about setting small goals, getting them right and then moving up to the next one, I find.

My journey has been a stark reminder to me that when I tried bridging the gap between the skills required and the results needed, I often had to spend more and more money buying the next tool to get there, more often than not realising that I had to learn how to do it properly anyway. So I would have saved myself the hassle, money and clutter.

You’ve nailed your advice here…..thank you. This would be a road i could easily go on, spending fortunes to fill skills gaps that time would help close.

 

[Jameshow]

Sorry @Jameshow I disagree. A table saw is not an essential tool for those tasks. It will make it easier/faster but it was only in the later 1800’s that they became common and not until the mid 1900’s that it became a hobbiest tool. Those tasks were carried out for generations before that.

@Jfw2708 If you want a powered saw a bandsaw can be a much more useful tool. If you get a decent sized one you can resaw material. Resawing, to me at least, is the task that benifits the most from power assistance. You can also use it for cutting to size and even cutting joints although, in my opinion, those are more fulfilling done by hand.

A lot comes down to why you are doing it. Is it the joy of making something and developing skills or is it the finished product that is your primary objective? If it is the first going down the hand tool route will bring you the most short term frustration and long term satisfaction if the product is the goal then you could power up all the way to a CNC. There is of course a happy medium and you will find what works best for you but don’t jump on the table saw bandwagon, influenced by YouTube influencers, unless you know you want to go that route.

Nor is a bandsaw!

A handsaw it is then!

I have found a table saw a much more reliable machine for cutting timber straight than a bandsaw which needs to be a 14"+ model ime.

 

[paulrbarnard]

Nor is a bandsaw!

A handsaw it is then!

I have found a table saw a much more reliable machine for cutting timber straight than a bandsaw which needs to be a 14"+ model ime.

I’m hankering after a pit saw but not convinced I can get my wife on the bottom end.

 

[Molynoox]

Dust
It took me a while to work out the importance of dust extraction. For a while I was working in a dusty environment and eventually I realised it was taking the pleasure out of woodworking. It's also not healthy. So I have upgraded to a Festool MIDI now, still a shop vac (LVHP), but filtering much better than my old Wickes shop vac. This works with all my tools other than the thicknesser (I don't have a table saw but i do have a bandsaw). For my thicknesser I am currently investigating if I can use the Festool to drive a cyclone with a 75mm input (most of my other tools are between 30 and 40mm port size). If I can't then I will need to either just let the chips fall on the floor or buy a camvac style extractor (HVLP) and run it in addition to my shop vac. Haven't bottomed that one out yet

The Festool vacs are 5 times the price of some of the other brands that seem similar but I chose to invest as its almost a tool for life (many people have had theirs for 10-15 years). My favourite feature is the bluetooth remote that I attach to the end of the hose and use it to remotely trigger the vac, works really well with my tracksaw setup. Incidentally, the smooth hoses on the Festool vacs run over the edges of workbenches without snagging - if you use a track saw with a cheap shop vac and a 'ridged' hose you will know just how unbelievably irritating that tiny detail can be!

Table Saw
I don't have one but I have thought about it a lot.
I agree with the other comments about the bandsaw being more versatile than table saw, and a possible alternative as a first tool. A track saw is the other option to think about - it can cut to similar accuracy as table saw with added advantage of being better with large sheet goods. It is less convenient however because it doesn't have the same fence system as the table saw.
Ultimately the bandsaw will give you the convenience of a table saw because it uses a similar fence system, but it wont give you the accuracy. But its more versatile - being able to resaw is a big game changer, and cutting curves is really handy too.

If you enjoy hand planing then you could always finish the band saw cuts by hand. I think a bandsaw is a better option than table saw if you are only going to get one, especially if you have a track saw already.

Martin

 

[Mikebart]

Why do people think a bandsaw is better than a table saw,it’s safer than a table saw but believe it or not they are two different machines for different reasons.
I have both and they compliment each other.
From the original post as a newbie to woodworking hand tools are the way to go.
I wish I had more knowledge on how wood behaves when any tool is used on it.
I know what a chisel is for and I know it needs to be sharp.
I need a saw, crosscut, rip cut, tipi, general purpose what finish cut do I want on what wood.
You can’t learn what you don’t know unless you are shown correctly.
I would not buy a used tool unless I knew a lot about that tool use and how to use it.
There is what I call agricultural woodwork, it’s outside with a six inch nail holding it together and then there is fine woodworking which needs a bit more care.
Rant over and that’s why my stepson calls me grumps.

 

[bp122]

Why do people think a bandsaw is better than a table saw,it’s safer than a table saw but believe it or not they are two different machines for different reasons.
I have both and they compliment each other.

From my experience, it is a combination of a few things:

1. Even a £1600 table saw's cut capacity is around 70-80mm. Much lower for saws under £700 mark. And even lower if cutting at an angle. If you need to cut anything bigger, you either have to cut one side partially and flip over (keeping the same reference edge) and cut partially again. This is not even possible with some saws due to the riving knife being higher or the blade guard being "in the way"
A good bandsaw will eat through that with a good blade.

2. Most small saws are under powered for hardwoods for long time. Some of them have questionable fences for alignment.

3. Cutting curves, patterns etc is so important (or will be in someone's woodworking journey sooner or later) unless one's working with just straight cut sheet goods, for which a track saw is a better tool.

4. Safety: there is a high chance of a workpiece being propelled at the user with a table saw than a bandsaw (if the workpiece isn't flat, the fence is not aligned, etc.) but with a bandsaw, the blade pushes the workpiece down so the safety factor is better. (Of course, one can cut any body part with either tool if one tries well enough!)

5. Scope of projects: a brilliant woodworker will not "need" either of these, I agree. But us mortals have greater scope of projects presented to us via a bandsaw than a table saw.

6. Economy of timber use: unlike some here who get their spare timber from other customers' projects, hobbyists like me can't afford to waste timber when I need a smaller piece. With a bandsaw, I have utilized so much more timber from a workpiece into useful things rather than just turning them into dust. A table saw will not do well here, I feel.

Yes, neither tool are cheap. But for the same budget (let's say £600-£800) one can get a superb used bandsaw with smaller footprint, greater cut capacity than a table saw. Even without the immediate need for a chip extractor if you rig up a shopvac nearer the lower bearing guides.

Once again, not saying a table saw is useless, just sharing what I have learnt. If I had a big enough workspace and some spare money, I'd also maybe buy one. But I feel my woodworking has improved since I got my bandsaw as it has had an impact on the mental blockages I had put on possibilities based on what tools I had.

 

[deema]

A gym and any power tools is like oil and water….they don’t mix. Any power tool, bandsaw or table saw will produce a lot of dust regardless of dust extraction. A Planner Thicknesser is equally as bad at throwing out dust. Yes, I’m expecting push back from some members, but, as Im happy to wipe any surface with a white cloth after they have had a good session with a machine to prove my point. Saw dust and a sweaty gym are not to be experienced!!
So you either divide the garage with a stud wall or stick to hand tools.
I made an awful lot with just hand tools including a full bedroom fit out when I was younger. The first thing to make is a good solid bench, many styles just pick one. The front 150mm, 6” is critical. It needs to be thick and flat to allow you to flatten and thickness stuff by hand successfully. You will only get stuff as flat as the surface you place it on.
Buy good quality handsaws (Rip, panel and a tenon) like say Thomas Flynn or secondhand and learn how to sharpen them. About 3 chisels, 1/4, 1/2 and 1” or 1 1/4” and a No4 plane. A mallet (which you make) a hammer and a drill and you can make a huge variety of stuff.

 

[Jfw2708]

Dust
It took me a while to work out the importance of dust extraction. For a while I was working in a dusty environment and eventually I realised it was taking the pleasure out of woodworking. It's also not healthy. So I have upgraded to a Festool MIDI now, still a shop vac (LVHP), but filtering much better than my old Wickes shop vac. This works with all my tools other than the thicknesser (I don't have a table saw but i do have a bandsaw). For my thicknesser I am currently investigating if I can use the Festool to drive a cyclone with a 75mm input (most of my other tools are between 30 and 40mm port size). If I can't then I will need to either just let the chips fall on the floor or buy a camvac style extractor (HVLP) and run it in addition to my shop vac. Haven't bottomed that one out yet

The Festool vacs are 5 times the price of some of the other brands that seem similar but I chose to invest as its almost a tool for life (many people have had theirs for 10-15 years). My favourite feature is the bluetooth remote that I attach to the end of the hose and use it to remotely trigger the vac, works really well with my tracksaw setup. Incidentally, the smooth hoses on the Festool vacs run over the edges of workbenches without snagging - if you use a track saw with a cheap shop vac and a 'ridged' hose you will know just how unbelievably irritating that tiny detail can be!

Table Saw
I don't have one but I have thought about it a lot.
I agree with the other comments about the bandsaw being more versatile than table saw, and a possible alternative as a first tool. A track saw is the other option to think about - it can cut to similar accuracy as table saw with added advantage of being better with large sheet goods. It is less convenient however because it doesn't have the same fence system as the table saw.
Ultimately the bandsaw will give you the convenience of a table saw because it uses a similar fence system, but it wont give you the accuracy. But its more versatile - being able to resaw is a big game changer, and cutting curves is really handy too.

If you enjoy hand planing then you could always finish the band saw cuts by hand. I think a bandsaw is a better option than table saw if you are only going to get one, especially if you have a track saw already.

Martin

My workshop is in the garage, as is our gym. Shared space will need a sawdust free environment to ensure domestic harmony….so a Festool may be on the cards!