Are standards necessary / useful in the UK?

[sploo]

Hi Sploo
Yep, read the Wikipedia, all of it. Did you see (as an example) where the EU basically has done nothing, and only in 2020 decided they needed new laws to help regulate itself / compliance to the standards that they whitewashed and allowed to continue not to comply with the very standards they should have been enforcing? Let’s remember this dates back to 1998 when it was first highlighted.....a mere 22 years? Can point at the appropriate sections.

Whaaaaa?

How have you managed to (apparently) read that Wiki page, yet ignore the long list of sanctions you'd claimed hadn't happened, and then somehow get onto blaming the EU?

 

[sploo]

Interesting that the biggest offender that I can recall in terms of emissions standards here is a european company scamming emissions tests.

I would reword that to say that the biggest offender to get caught is a European company (who also happens to be [just about] the biggest auto maker in the world). However, plenty of the others are also "up to stuff": Diesel emissions scandal - Wikipedia

Emissions equipment on cars is a marketable thing here. It may not make as much immediate sense in the UK where most of what comes out of there just blows over open water, but there are several areas of inversion in the US that are almost intolerable without emissions standards on cars.

I'd hope that the incentives to introduce anti-pollution legislation aren't based on the logic of "blows away => someone else's problem => don't bother" vs "stays here => our problem => guess we better do something"

 

[deema]

Whaaaaa?

How have you managed to (apparently) read that Wiki page, yet ignore the long list of sanctions you'd claimed hadn't happened, and then somehow get onto blaming the EU?

Yes a few bits of wrist slapping. But, the cars still didn’t comply, if you read it they allowed them twice the emissions of the standard and years to even meet the reduced requirement. So no, the vehicles were not recalled and fixed to meet the requirements of the standard they were produced to and to which every other vehicle manufacturer had to abide by. It would in all likelihood have killed the company if they had.

this is however diverting from the original question

 

[Nigel Burden]

Interesting perspectives given. I’m rather cynical myself of standards having sat on a few of the committees who set them in different industries, from automotive, electrical parameter instrumentation to medical. The committees supposedly have representatives from all stakeholders (interested parties) but are in reality dominated IMO by the largest manufacturers in that sector. The aim has always been IMO of the company’s to develop a standard that has been so difficult, draconian and expensive to implement that it reduces / eliminates competition. Nothing what’s so ever to do with protecting the public, that was always what the measures were dressed up to be. Lipstick and pig come to mind.

Now once these usually over the top standards get made into law, the real problems begin. There is nobody policing them. So, you have a situation where anybody can claim to be making products to a standard and nobody knows if they are or arn’t. A good example is the recent wonderful emission scandal of VW. A very highly respected German manufacturer of vehicles who you would have assumed was beyond reproach of flaunting, circumnavigating and fraud about compliance. Well, it would appear not.

The usual joke is that anything marked CE marked coming from China is not CE marked which by the way a company can award itself, it standards for Chinese Export. There as there is nobody to regulate, check or verify the millions of products meet the standards they claim to have been made to. The only time anything is checked is when there is a serious accident. Even then, most investigators don’t have a clue about the standards or how they are interpreted. At one company, who I was associated with, the largest manufacturer of the type of product in the UK, we were the experts the police called upon in serious automotive accidents that involved the type of products we made.

Look at FENSA, you have these days to be FENSA registered and ‘approved’ to fit a window. Well. Let’s look at the detail. How do I become FENSA approved? How long does it take to master the skills required / exams I have to sit? The answer might surprise you.....five minutes in the FENSA web site a few pounds and you get immediate FENSA certification. No exams, no nothing. Golly, I’m so glad and feel so well reassured that the window fitter is FENSA approved!

So, I have examples as long as my arm, and indeed just about everything I’ve ever looked into has exactly the same issues. Let’s as a last example take the law of the land, which has been cited. The pretext in the Uk is that not knowing the requirements of the law is no defence in the Uk. Well, how many of us know the law? I mean ever law that’s still on the statute books that could or is likely to touch us.....hands up......anyone.....nobody? Nope, none of us. It’s so complicated, open to interpretation, and it’s actual nature defined and redefined ever court case that we have specialists who make it their business to study, understand and interpret it for us.....lawyers! I can absolutely guarantee that every single one of us has broken the law multiple times and been completely unaware we have done it. There will also be numerous times we have broken the law deliberately, knowing, and with motive.......parking, speeding, jay walking are all good examples. I think it’s Wales that has / had the zero tolerance approach to all speeding offences, they certainly seem to have more than their fair share of speed cameras.....but have the most deaths on the roads. Possibly due to everyone focused on trying to slow down when ever they see a speed camera than actual focusing on driving.....who knows, but it’s reassuring that they have a zero tolerance to speeding.

Zero tolerance to speeding is stupid.

Firstly speedometers are not accurate and allowances are made for this by the majority of Police forces in the UK in that they allow a 10 percent plus 2 mph before a fixed penalty is issued. As most drivers are unable to accurately asses their speed this makes sense for what is a minor offence.

IIRC. zero tolerance was introduced by the then Chief Constable Richard Brunston. who himself was caught speeding on the A55

Nigel.

 

[sploo]

Yes a few bits of wrist slapping. But, the cars still didn’t comply, if you read it they allowed them twice the emissions of the standard and years to even meet the reduced requirement. So no, the vehicles were not recalled and fixed to meet the requirements of the standard they were produced to and to which every other vehicle manufacturer had to abide by. It would in all likelihood have killed the company if they had.

The wikipedia article literally details the recalls; there's an entire section dedicated to it. The "few bits of wrist slapping" included settlements such as a payment of 830 million Euros.

The vehicles were specifically recalled to meet the requirements to which every other vehicle manufacturer had to abide to. Now whether those cars actually meet the stated legal standard under normal driving conditions is another thing altogether (as pretty much no cars actually do).

I suspect the "realistic" EU driving emissions test is a related concession (whether that's a sensible solution or an awful defeat to the car companies is a different discussion).

 

[Misterdog]

I remember when we went from a 3/4" 8 gauge screw to a 19x4 mm I loved it because the Euro screws were such better quality. The lads I employed were flummoxed for years though.
If I had ten shillings for each time I explained how simple the new metric system was, I would be retired now.

 

[DBT85]

People question Boeing only having a single airspeed sensor but that is not the real issue. The problem now is that many pilots cannot actually fly an aeroplane, they have been trained on modern fly by wire systems and have become reliant on computer assistance. Something goes wrong and they are in big trouble, many lack the basics that would have been learnt had they had to fly by the seat of their pants in an old plane where they feel what it is doing. There was a program not long ago where a plane crashed because the pilot lost electronic instrumentation, he thought it was descending so he just pulled back until the plane stalled at which point it fell out of the sky. We now have the same issue with driving, you are taught to pass the test and not how to drive.

Pilots have to spend hundreds of hours to fly for airlines in the specific plane they need to fly. Its nothing like passing a driving test where once complete (possible to pass with literally no prior real experience) you can drive everything from a fiat 500 to a ferrari f50.

 

[D_W]

I would reword that to say that the biggest offender to get caught is a European company (who also happens to be [just about] the biggest auto maker in the world). However, plenty of the others are also "up to stuff": Diesel emissions scandal - Wikipedia


I'd hope that the incentives to introduce anti-pollution legislation aren't based on the logic of "blows away => someone else's problem => don't bother" vs "stays here => our problem => guess we better do something"

Well, you'd have to explain why a country and continent obsessed with environmental standards vs. the US standards is so much more lax about automobile emissions. The driver here was likely the ohio valley and LA areas where inversions left smog just sitting in place.

When I bought my first VW, I was amazed that the Euro version was 210 horsepower and the american version was 174 horsepower. The difference between the two was meeting emissions standards (that was 20 years ago now - I learned my lesson to not buy german cars from VW).

 

[Misterdog]

Police forces in the UK in that they allow a 10 percent plus 2 mph before a fixed penalty is issued

Sometimes, but then sometimes not.

The judge will view it dimly when you try to tell him that you read on the internet that 35 MPH is acceptable in a 30 limit.
Or 79 MPH on the motorway.

You might find the judge has more powers at his discretion than you thought..

 

[sploo]

Well, you'd have to explain why a country and continent obsessed with environmental standards vs. the US standards is so much more lax about automobile emissions. The driver here was likely the ohio valley and LA areas where inversions left smog just sitting in place.

When I bought my first VW, I was amazed that the Euro version was 210 horsepower and the american version was 174 horsepower. The difference between the two was meeting emissions standards (that was 20 years ago now - I learned my lesson to not buy german cars from VW).

Good question. I must admit I always thought it was odd that the home of the gas guzzling V8 had emissions rules that often meant reduced HP on US versions of cars. I don't know exactly how US emissions rules compare to those across the rest of the world though.

BTW I wouldn't advise being put off German cars as a result of buying a VW; there are other options

 

[Nigel Burden]

Sometimes, but then sometimes not.

The judge will view it dimly when you try to tell him that you read on the internet that 35 MPH is acceptable in a 30 limit.
Or 79 MPH on the motorway.

You might find the judge has more powers at his discretion than you thought..

You would not be in court if you accepted the fixed penalty.

10 percent plus two is the guideline put in place for Police forces regarding prosecuting speeding offences by the ACPO. Association of Chief Police Officers, below which a prosecution is not recommended.

Nigel.

 

[Jake]

There are multiple cases going through courts across the globe for people sold these vehicles getting compensation. No idea on the fraud part. But the execs that make these decisions are they type of people that don't go to jail all too often.

Winterkorn (ex CEO) has been charged with fraud in Germany (along with other senior execs) and has been indicted in the US as well.

 

[DBT85]

Firstly speedometers are not accurate and allowances are made for this by the majority of Police forces in the UK in that they allow a 10 percent plus 2 mph before a fixed penalty is issued. As most drivers are unable to accurately asses their speed this makes sense for what is a minor offence.

Paging @XH558 as I'm fairly sure that this is a myth.

Zero tolerance however is stupid, but speedos (I think) have to over estimate your speed from the factory, not under.

 

[Nigel Burden]

Paging @XH558 as I'm fairly sure that this is a myth.

Zero tolerance however is stupid, but speedos (I think) have to over estimate your speed from the factory, not under.

You are correct that it is illegal for a speedometer to under read. IIAC, a speedometer is allowed to over read by up to 10 percent, hence the guidance from the ACPO.

Most Police forces do not operate a zero tolerance policy, although some have no doubt caved in to pressure from anti speed pressure groups. Most forces are signed up to the National Speed Awareness Scheme. Dorset however, is not signed up to the scheme, preferring operating it's own Driver Awareness Scheme.

Nigel.

 

[D_W]

BTW I wouldn't advise being put off German cars as a result of buying a VW; there are other options

Things are probably different in europe where core models are made in europe, though I have my doubts about too many audi products coming remotely close to toyota's core products when it comes to longevity.

Here in the US, a lot of german cars are made in mexico or the south, and on top of that, there are plenty of low volume US only models.

I'm not aware of a good reliable german car since the early 1980s mercedes. It's almost a joke, too -especially on teh service and repair side.

Coil over plug for my wife's VW (you read that right - literally about the same time I was dumping my VW for a honda, I met my wife. She had just purchased a VW with an audi-made turbo four cylinder. Great power potential, but as a practical car, an absolute cowpie. poor efficiency, poor engineering for every part in the car, constant replacement of routine things (as a relative here who is a VW certified tech would later tell me "well, they often don't use plastics that tolerate oil contact in parts of the car where oil contact is common). At any rate, over 10 years, I put about 8 coil over plug units in that car. Not remotely close to a significant issue with it, though (only about $300 of parts to do that and easy to diagnose) - just under $40 each. If you were unfortunate enough to have the audi with the same engine, the connector was different ($90) and the same part with a third style of connector was available for a benz ($132). That's the online price, slight discount over parts counter. I often wondered what the markup on the coil was for a benz, plus diagnostic, etc.

it takes about 15 minutes to check the code twice, swap out the coil and then put all of the covers back on. dealers here charge a $50-$75 diagnostic fee for anything, usually mark up parts 200-300% on the service bill and then charge a half hour of labor. That would put a benz coil over plug fix at around $475. All for a core part (sans the connector issue) that would wholesale around $20 and by someone with a cordless ratchet and a code reader, could be changed in less than 10 minutes).

These kinds of things are why I love the older incremental improvement philosophy that 'yota used to use. Even the older platforms from some of the domestics were like that (not uncommon to drive a ford panther platform for over 300k miles without anything but routine service, but also plenty of domestic stuff now that struggles to have very many get to 150k miles even with near five figures of repair bills in the wake.

Between the wife's VW and mine, 110k miles of total driving yielded about $11,000 in repairs, with about 1/3rd of that warranty covered.

My toyota vehicle is 13 years old in two months. Unscheduled maintenance so far is $79.

The audi and benz vehicles the same size class as my old VWs were off the road before the VWs even were.

Cousin-in-law who is a VW tech likes to buy the old diesels (pre scandal) for scrap price ($200), go through them end to end, drive them a while and then sell them for $3k. He does that with about one a year. "They are fun cars for a mechanic, but not good to own if you can't do all of the work on them".

 

[Spectric]

I'm not aware of a good reliable german car since the early 1980s mercedes. It's almost a joke, too -especially on teh service and repair side.

Unfortunately the German auto industry would have priced itself out of the market had it not started making Mercedes and the like on the same scale as the rest. They seem to have gone too far down the pan and need to up their game somewhat. I can remember when you knew it was a mercedes, the doors felt heavy and solid yet closed with a gentle click and the engine just purred.

 

[sploo]

Things are probably different in europe where core models are made in europe, though I have my doubts about too many audi products coming remotely close to toyota's core products when it comes to longevity.

Remember that Audi is VW

I don’t know the situation in the US, but it's quite normal to find VW, Audi and Skoda cars all with VW stamped parts (given they're all part of VAG).

It's a good point about the location of manufacture though; as I believe that BMW and Mercedes make their European-bound cars in Germany.

 

[Jameshow]

We hired a vw 4x4 7 seater toureg sized but not.

Quality was not up to European standards more like Skoda level....

Engine was a nice 3.6 V6 but no V8!

Cheers James

 

[DBT85]

We hired a vw 4x4 7 seater toureg sized but not.

Quality was not up to European standards more like Skoda level....

Engine was a nice 3.6 V6 but no V8!

Cheers James

Skodas like audis and seats are mostly vw parts, just with a less galling price tag.

Can't complain at all about my 280 Superb.

 

[Jameshow]

Tbh haven't been in the latest Skoda but the 2004 - 2010??? Octavia felt a step down from the past / A4.

Cheers James