pe2dave
Established Member
Odd how many standards do work, to the mutual benefit of orgs?
Are standards necessary / useful in the UK?
- Thread starter pe2dave
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billw
The Tattooed One
I'm surprised anyone has any faith in the US regulation system or Boeing as a company after that fiasco. DId a case study on Boeing recently and the lengths they go to to avoid taking the blame for anything is pretty eye-opening.
Woody2Shoes
Impressive Member
Yeah - for example, they make buying and selling stuff a lot easier (at multiple levels)!
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
They'd cheat even more so without regulation, which is why we have regulations in the first place, definitely for the better on the whole.
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
None of that is really the fault of the standards though. Indeed the "standards" relating to vehicle emissions are the very thing VW were breaking, by implementing a hidden vehicle mode to try to fake better results. The automotive industry would almost certainly prefer no (or at least greatly relaxed) standards in this area - as it would enable them to reduce costs.
It’s just my cynical view, I compare it to the law of the land. We have laws, lots of them, but they arnt enforced as there arnt sufficient police to prevent crimes / investigate them when they do happen.......or actual keep proper statistics on how many happen......exit stage left Ian Hopkins (Manchester exchief of police) . We make more laws, which in the main make everyone feel better, as we have now crimilised something or other, but the reality is it’s not actually policed. Minor crimes don’t in the main go to court, a caution, a night in the cells, perhaps a police record, small fine etc are dolled out. But still this doesn’t change behaviours, and that’s not including the thousands of reported crimes that never get solved.
So, how does this relate to products, well, As I real life example, I was involved in an industry that up until 1998 had no standards, it was a free for all. But, accidents were very few and far between. Why? Well the public bought the product predominant from a small number of highly regarded company’s that had built their reputation on the safety of their products. All was well with the world. Then in 1998 a new standard was set, product cost now increased as all new products had to be certified.....these are classed as safety critical items. Bravo, we all must now be safer, the result, well safety went down. It opened the flood gates to cheaply made products that were ‘CE’ marked and didn’t comply at all. How do I know, because we tested them! Anyway, accidents increased, people got hurt, no prosecutions arose as nobody but a few company’s could really could carry out the real tests, certainly not the police, who weren’t even aware it knew the standards and how to recognise a dodgy product. It continues to this day.
Closer to a lot of woodworkers hearts, table saws. Lots of regulations around them. Excellent, very dangerous piece of kit unless used properly. So, you’d expect all new table saws to be safe; obviously! Well, IMO no, a high number arnt, in fact IMO they are positively dangerous. There have been many threads on here about wobbly, misaligned, won’t lock properly table saw fences. There have been lots of excellent engineering solutions suggested and threads on how to make the fences work properly, as they should have to begin with. So, what we can say is that saw as sold did not meet the basic safety requirements, the requirements if the standards and still they are being sold, and still people keep fixing them. The law is simply, all of these are illegal, and you are entitled to return them for a full refund......but few know it, few do it and so it continues.
So, how does this relate to products, well, As I real life example, I was involved in an industry that up until 1998 had no standards, it was a free for all. But, accidents were very few and far between. Why? Well the public bought the product predominant from a small number of highly regarded company’s that had built their reputation on the safety of their products. All was well with the world. Then in 1998 a new standard was set, product cost now increased as all new products had to be certified.....these are classed as safety critical items. Bravo, we all must now be safer, the result, well safety went down. It opened the flood gates to cheaply made products that were ‘CE’ marked and didn’t comply at all. How do I know, because we tested them! Anyway, accidents increased, people got hurt, no prosecutions arose as nobody but a few company’s could really could carry out the real tests, certainly not the police, who weren’t even aware it knew the standards and how to recognise a dodgy product. It continues to this day.
Closer to a lot of woodworkers hearts, table saws. Lots of regulations around them. Excellent, very dangerous piece of kit unless used properly. So, you’d expect all new table saws to be safe; obviously! Well, IMO no, a high number arnt, in fact IMO they are positively dangerous. There have been many threads on here about wobbly, misaligned, won’t lock properly table saw fences. There have been lots of excellent engineering solutions suggested and threads on how to make the fences work properly, as they should have to begin with. So, what we can say is that saw as sold did not meet the basic safety requirements, the requirements if the standards and still they are being sold, and still people keep fixing them. The law is simply, all of these are illegal, and you are entitled to return them for a full refund......but few know it, few do it and so it continues.
Standards and enforcement go hand in hand. Without one you have neither.
I wonder how important VW is to Germany, could it be allowed to fail and go bankrupt as a consequence?
So what has happened now it’s been found out? All the dodgy product recalled, everyone got compensation? Or, are they all still running around polluting the environment and everyone has forgotten about it and moved in. Anyone go to jail?
Now, what should have happened is that the product doesn’t meet the standards, it should have been recalled and changes made to make it compliant or destroyed. Individuals should have been compensated for the misleading claims they made in their marketing. Those responsible for fraud should have been prosecuted and probably receive jail sentences. Now, I’m not aware of any if that happening, but I’m happy to be corrected.
DBT85
Established Member
Laws are made so that if someone is caught doing it then they can be prosecuted.
The law doesn't stop me breaking the law, it holds me accountable if I'm caught.
Otherwise people can do things that we know they shouldn't be doing, and when caught there is no recourse.
The law doesn't stop me breaking the law, it holds me accountable if I'm caught.
Otherwise people can do things that we know they shouldn't be doing, and when caught there is no recourse.
There are multiple cases going through courts across the globe for people sold these vehicles getting compensation. No idea on the fraud part. But the execs that make these decisions are they type of people that don't go to jail all too often.
??
We work proportionally more, but as far as standards go, we adhere to them when they make sense. We don't have the same european sentimentality to something established if it's getting in the way.
This is changing, though - the economy of innovation that was here through, let's say, 1965 ,doesn't really exist at the same level now. Too much regulatory red tape and overhead. And lots of capital from the wealthy being used to purchase low and mid level businesses left and right at the same time (that money is past the red tape whereas someone just trying to make or do something anew has to learn it all).
pe2dave
Established Member
Standards? Or regulations? Easy to conflate.
People question Boeing only having a single airspeed sensor but that is not the real issue. The problem now is that many pilots cannot actually fly an aeroplane, they have been trained on modern fly by wire systems and have become reliant on computer assistance. Something goes wrong and they are in big trouble, many lack the basics that would have been learnt had they had to fly by the seat of their pants in an old plane where they feel what it is doing. There was a program not long ago where a plane crashed because the pilot lost electronic instrumentation, he thought it was descending so he just pulled back until the plane stalled at which point it fell out of the sky. We now have the same issue with driving, you are taught to pass the test and not how to drive.
billw
The Tattooed One
I think I'd replace "when they make sense" with "when the market accepts them". We've seen the latest administration gut regulations on clean air, clean water, and Trump with his "I can't wash my hair properly because the pressure's too low" nonsense.
The American attitude comes across as "standards are set by the level at which consumers sue", because if there's no financial cost then business doesn't care.
I'm not saying it's wrong, free-market capitalism has driven the country for two centuries after all, but when it comes to protections for wildlife, nature reserves, environmental issues - well that's the negative aspect in my eyes of having short-termism at the centre of your outlook.
billw
The Tattooed One
Quite a few accident reports in which the pilots were frantically leafing through the ops manual trying to figure out what to do.
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
Agreed - but lack of enforcement is still not the "fault" of the existence of the legislation.
Errr - quite a lot happened: Volkswagen emissions scandal - Wikipedia
Refit of several million vehicles, plenty of lawsuits, hundreds of millions of Euros paid out, arrests, and several executes receiving criminal charges.
As noted above; that's exactly what's been happening. It took all of about 5s to search "vw dieselgate scandal" and get the above wiki link.
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
That's perhaps a bit harsh on the 737 Max pilots; given that Boeing had failed to mention MCAS in the aircraft manual.
billw
The Tattooed One
Also if you watch some of the crosswind landings on YouTube which are manually done, it's fair to say pilots still have a lot of skill. Pilots who fly to Gibraltar have to be really skilled, if you land on R09 the approach is pretty hair raising and the winds are very unpredictable. No chance autopilot would ever cope.
Hi Sploo
Yep, read the Wikipedia, all of it. Did you see (as an example) where the EU basically has done nothing, and only in 2020 decided they needed new laws to help regulate itself / compliance to the standards that they whitewashed and allowed to continue not to comply with the very standards they should have been enforcing? Let’s remember this dates back to 1998 when it was first highlighted.....a mere 22 years? Can point at the appropriate sections.
Yep, read the Wikipedia, all of it. Did you see (as an example) where the EU basically has done nothing, and only in 2020 decided they needed new laws to help regulate itself / compliance to the standards that they whitewashed and allowed to continue not to comply with the very standards they should have been enforcing? Let’s remember this dates back to 1998 when it was first highlighted.....a mere 22 years? Can point at the appropriate sections.
billw
The Tattooed One
I recall one story where a country got round the issue of restaurant hygiene standards by simply not employing any inspectors. No restaurant failed an inspection as a result.
Our emissions standards are far more strict than europe or the UK. All of the US isn't in on the carbon gestapo, though. Why? Some don't think it's a problem (I'm not in that crowd) and most of the rest objecting don't much care for the terms, which are just wealth reallocation without necessarily doing much to lower carbon.
As for the rest of the air quality standards, you'll have to gauge for us how much of the global air quality issues are due to the US vs. eastern europe and asia.
Interesting that the biggest offender that I can recall in terms of emissions standards here is a european company scamming emissions tests.
Emissions equipment on cars is a marketable thing here. It may not make as much immediate sense in the UK where most of what comes out of there just blows over open water, but there are several areas of inversion in the US that are almost intolerable without emissions standards on cars. The whole issue further with diesels and why they're being given up on here is that they can't cut it with emissions no matter how "clean" you make them, and they're being outdone by HEVs in terms of mileage and cost.
Fairly sure the EPA has two goals here - eliminate coal, and eliminate diesel. Eventually it will be moving toward all power generation being centralized so that it's distributed to users (even as far as California determining that gas appliances pollute more than using gas to generate electricity and using the electricity in appliances - so that's the route they're going. The rest of us in the US will follow after diesel and coal are eliminated and unburned fuel emissions elsewhere are tackled.
Some of our foundations here outed the particulate emissions and filth that the whole biofuels and biomass industries contribute. Trendy idea - horrible polluter compared to nat gas and more expensive. Virtue signaling isn't our specialty unless you hang around in academic circles here.
