Yet another sharpening thread...round carving gouge

[Dino]

So. I am having a little trouble sharpening my carving gouges.

They cut but I know it could be smoother, and I think I am having trouble hitting the right angle. My problem is that I have found a lot of resources online but everyone seems to be using some for of rounded sharpening stone / sharpening stone with grooves in them and I have no idea what these are called or where to find them.

So I guess what I am asking is does anyone have any tips on the angle I should sharpen the gouges at for them to cut well? And where can I find these rounded sharpening stones?

Thanks!

 

[matthewwh]

I use a polishing mop for gouges.

With the top of the wheel rotating away from you, lay the heel of the bevel on and draw back until you hear the edge make contact, then roll the chisel to polish the entire edge. A wipe with a folded piece of leather to remove the wire edge on the inside and away you go.

This method was taught to me by Barry Iles, who has probably honed more carving tools than I've had hot dinners. It's quick to do and easy to get the hang of. You can also colour in the bevel with a marker pen so its easy to see where you've been until you develop an ear for it.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Hold the gouge as if being used to carve a shallow groove or something, with the heel of the hand resting on the surface of the wood. The angle to tool makes with the wood surface is the sharpening angle. This will invariably be very shallow, so an inner bevel is put on the gouge, to make an included angle that is less fragile than a very shallow single bevel would be. Sharpen to the finest grit available. I don't know what media you are using, but it needs to be very fine indeed, for a smooth result. Scary sharp down to 1 mic or finer, or strop after Hard Arkansas sort of levels.

Mike.

 

[Dino]

Highest I have is a 1200 grit sharpening stone.

How would I go about making the inner bevel with non-rounded sharpening equipment? What kind of angle do I want on the inner bevel?

And matthewwh that technique is just for honing, right? I won't be able to sharpen the gouge that way will I?

 

[J_SAMa]

Highest I have is a 1200 grit sharpening stone.

How would I go about making the inner bevel with non-rounded sharpening equipment? What kind of angle do I want on the inner bevel?

And matthewwh that technique is just for honing, right? I won't be able to sharpen the gouge that way will I?

Hi,
No, I doubt you will be able to sharpen with just a polishing mop. You're right in that it is only for the final refining of the edge after preliminary grinding and sharpening on coarse stones.
You will need two types of stones, regular bench stones for the outer bevel and round "slip stones" for the inside of the gouge. Sharpen the gouge like so: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5iEhUoSi8Q. She's using a 8000 grit stone but your 1200 grit will do as you will be polishing it afterwards. The video shows stropping by hand but Matthew's method is going to be equally effective.
The exact inner bevel angle is not critical. Sharpen it with as LOW an angle as possible and only increase the angle should you feel unhappy with the edge retention. Mary May in the video says to avoid an inside bevel. That's fine too if the edge lasts long enough without one.

Re the "stones with grooves in them" in the OP, are you talking about ones like these:
http://www.fine-tools.com/G309360.htm
These are completely unnecessary. Rolling the blade on a flat stone works fine as the video clearly demonstrates. Not to mention the fact that waterstones inevitably change shape.

Be patient, gouge sharpening is not like chisel/plane sharpening. Take time to make sure you have the shape you want. I have noticed that it is harder to remove the burr from a gouge than it is from a chisel/plane, not sure why, could be something to do with hardness (my gouges seem to be of soft steel), YMMV. Never try to "save time" by refraining from sharpening and strop much more than you do a chisel. Stropping as often as every few of strokes is not uncommon practice.

Sam

 

[woodbrains]

Highest I have is a 1200 grit sharpening stone.

How would I go about making the inner bevel with non-rounded sharpening equipment? What kind of angle do I want on the inner bevel?

And matthewwh that technique is just for honing, right? I won't be able to sharpen the gouge that way will I?

Hello,

The included angle needs to be the same sort of order as a paring chisel, so about 25 or a little steeper, it depends on how the chisel edge holds up in use. The bevel angle is determined by ergonomics, ie when your gouge is being used by you, as I said above, the angle is 'found' then just put an inner bevel on to get the 25 deg or so included a angle. It might be something like a 20 deg bevel and a 5 deg inner. Most new gouges are too steep and you cannot anchor the tool by resting the hand on the work whilst the bevel is rubbing on the surface. 1200 grit might explain why you are not getting as smooth a result as you want. You'll need some sort of slips to get the inner bevels, but I make my own out of various shaped dowels wrapped in abrasive film, such as Workshop Heaven stocks. An inner bevel means the tool is more versatile, too, in that it is useable, upside down for convex shapes.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

I thought this video was particularly good
http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/v ... tools.aspx
If you have a lathe you can replicate his wood "hollow and rounds" but turned in the round and powered, instead of by hand. Similarly a flat plywood face plate with autosol can replace a fine stone. Both at slow speeds.
The angle doesn't matter too much - acute for fine hand paring, steeper for heavy work with a mallet.
NB rounded bevels are normal - non of that odd obsession with flat bevels, "micro" bevels and similar nonsense.

 

[Dino]

Re the "stones with grooves in them" in the OP, are you talking about ones like these:
http://www.fine-tools.com/G309360.htm
These are completely unnecessary. Rolling the blade on a flat stone works fine as the video clearly demonstrates. Not to mention the fact that waterstones inevitably change shape.
Sam

Yes that was what I was referring to. Thanks for the info!

I've seen the autosol trick used in another sharpening video, I just need to get some first to try it out.

Thanks for all the advice guys, fantastic help.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I have so far just used silicon carbide abrasive paper wrapped around whatever bit of copper pipe or piece of dowel I have to hand as a sharpening stick for internal angles. Some use dowel with leather wrapped and glued around as a strop in the same sort of way.

I have to admit I don't do a lot of carving though.

 

[Lons]

I have so far just used silicon carbide abrasive paper wrapped around whatever bit of copper pipe or piece of dowel I have to hand as a sharpening stick for internal angles. Some use dowel with leather wrapped and glued around as a strop in the same sort of way. I have to admit I don't do a lot of carving though.

That's sort of what I do but I'm not going to argue with anyone about methods as there are as many as there are carvers and each to his own.

My advice for what it's worth:

Don't get fixated on angles, they are not that important and you will know what to do as you gain experience. The angles I use are invariably more shallow for lime or basswood than oak for example as a shallow edge on oak would soon chip the edge, doesn't matter whether using a mallet or not it will still happen. If it isn't cutting easily and cleanly then providing it's sharp the edge is too steep, if the edge is breaking and providing you aren't levering the wood then it's too shallow. Not quite as simple as that but good to start with.

Much more important is once you've got your chisels sharp is to keep touching the edge on a strop whilst you're working, takes seconds and makes carving a pleasure. My chisels usually have a mirror surface and the shinier it is the easier it slides through the wood.

Don't use a grinding wheel on your carving chisels, they're too thin and you'll wreck them. Do it by hand on a stone or abrasive on glass/granite,mdf, a flat disk with abrasive on a lathe or better a water cooled stone such as Tormek etc. Your choice.

You can buy shaped slipstones for the inside of the gouges but don't need to. Just stick some extremely fine abrasive to several sizes of dowel and also a bit of leather for polishing using chrome polish, cutting paste or even try toothpaste (the missus will never notice :lol: ). You can also fold over a bit of thick leather and use that as well as shape the edge of a bit for the inside of V gouges. Stick a bit of leather to a length of flat ply or mdf for polishing the outside edge. Some people successfully do it on just the mdf an chrome polish though not something I've tried.
A good place to get some leather is from one of the shoe repairers for next to nothing or a thick leather belt if you have one.

I would never put a micro bevel on the inside edge BTW it is totally unnecessary and not desirable, just keep the dowel or whatever flat and take off the wire edge.

Hope that helps

Bob

 

[woodbrains]

I would never put a micro bevel on the inside edge BTW it is totally unnecessary and not desirable, just keep the dowel or whatever flat and take off the wire edge.

Bob

Hello,

I would strongly disagree with this bit. Gouges are usually sharpened by the manufacturer with one outside bevel, but if you actually use the tool with the bevel as is, you will find you cannot anchor the tool with the lower hand. It has to be cranked up too high off the woods surface for comfort and control. As I said above, find the angle the tool is used at, for the comfort of the user, by holding the tool as you would to run a shallow groove. The angle the tool makes with the surface of the wood is the angle you want the bevel sharpened at. It doesn't matter numerically what it is, but will be quite a bit more acute than the manufacturers bevel. So an inside bevel is needed to thicken up the bevel, so it will not be so thin as to break easily in use. The inner bevel will also make the tool more handy, in that it can be used 'inside out' to carve convex shapes.

I'm not an expert carver by any stretch, I'd like to be better, but haven't the time to perfect it, I'm interested in cabinetry primarily. But when I found out this method of sharpening gouges as taught by Chris Pye, it was the biggest epiphany of my woodworking career. There was a night and day difference in the ease of use of the tools and what once felt awkward and difficult became natural and felt just right. Once you try a gouge sharpened like this, it makes perfect sense and you'll wonder why you didn't think of it yourself.

Mike.

 

[Lons]

I would never put a micro bevel on the inside edge BTW it is totally unnecessary and not desirable, just keep the dowel or whatever flat and take off the wire edge.

Bob

Hello,

I would strongly disagree with this bit. Gouges are usually sharpened by the manufacturer with one outside bevel, but if you actually use the tool with the bevel as is, you will find you cannot anchor the tool with the lower hand. It has to be cranked up too high off the woods surface for comfort and control. As I said above, find the angle the tool is used at, for the comfort of the user, by holding the tool as you would to run a shallow groove. The angle the tool makes with the surface of the wood is the angle you want the bevel sharpened at. It doesn't matter numerically what it is, but will be quite a bit more acute than the manufacturers bevel. So an inside bevel is needed to thicken up the bevel, so it will not be so thin as to break easily in use. The inner bevel will also make the tool more handy, in that it can be used 'inside out' to carve convex shapes.

I'm not an expert carver by any stretch, I'd like to be better, but haven't the time to perfect it, I'm interested in cabinetry primarily. But when I found out this method of sharpening gouges as taught by Chris Pye, it was the biggest epiphany of my woodworking career. There was a night and day difference in the ease of use of the tools and what once felt awkward and difficult became natural and felt just right. Once you try a gouge sharpened like this, it makes perfect sense and you'll wonder why you didn't think of it yourself.

Mike.

Sorry Mike but I said I wasn't going to argue and I'm not so lets agree to disagree please.

You have your way and I have mine which I've used for 30 years and was taught by a very accomplished carver who won many plaudits ans sold his work all over the world. I don't have a problem with my chisel edges and carve many different types of wood pretty successfully. Neither do I have any difficulty using the inside of the gouge on convex surfaces I certainly won't be putting micro bevels on the inside of my chisels but have no issue with you doing so to yours.

As I stated, there are as many ways to sharpen as there are carvers.

cheers
Bob

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I'm not arguing, it is just your assertion that an inner bevel is not desirable and unnecessary, when in certain instances it is both desirable and necessary. Lots of different ways, work for lots of people. Chris Pye is also a carver of 30+ years and having numerous awards and plaudits and himself taught by an Itallian master carver. I found his method of preparing gouges nothing short of miraculous, without any exaggeration. The wood carves with less effort dur to the line of force being closer to the axis of the cut and the more comfortable hand position is less staining on the muscles and is more comfortable for long periods. The method is certainly worth promoting and reitterating to anyone who enquiries on how to sharpen gouges. It is not a fad.

Mike.

 

[Lons]

Not arguing either Mike, just giving an honest opinion based upon my experience and one I stand by.

Chris is indeed an excellent and renowned carver but there are many others equally as respected who swear by other methods. I'm not going to quote third party opinions, there are many books and videos available on the subject all with differing point of view and all loudly proclaiming theirs is the best and only way to do it.
There's no "correct" method so lets just leave it there and let the Op try different methods and select what's right for him.

I have no wish to continue this debate further as we've both witnessed how devisive sharpening threads can become.

regards
Bob

 

[David C]

Leonard Lee is very interesting on this topic.

I think his sharpening book is excellent.

David Charlesworth

 

[Cheshirechappie]

If anybody wants a copy of 'The Complete Book of Sharpening' by Leonard Lee, new paperback copies are available from www.abebooks.co.uk (I think the book is out of print - Amazon don't have any new copies, though all the reviews on Amazon are 5 star).

I really don't need another sharpening book. I've had Jim Kingshott's 'Sharpening: The Complete Guide' for donkey's years (which I recommend for anyone seeking a craftsman's insight), and seem to have come to terms with all my sharpening 'issues'. However, since Jacob has been snide about Mr Lee's book, I've invested in a copy. There are still several left if anybody else wants one.