Quantcast
  • We invite you to join UKWorkshop.
    Members can turn off viewing Ads!

Wood glue

UKworkshop.co.uk

Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:

profchris

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2015
Messages
800
Reaction score
63
Location
Suffolk
most here use titebond. Even the musical instrument manufacturers did until the rise of the electric guitar forums told everyone that they could hear mushy tone with titebond joints.
Not all! I'm mulling over a neck reset on a friend's acoustic guitar, probably 70s Japan made. It could be attached with AMG (Asian Mystery Glue). This has baffled luthiers for years, heat doesn't melt it, solvents don't soften it. Some relative of Cascamite??

I guess I should ask here, any way of separating a Cascamite (old recipe) joint, short of using a hammer?
 

D_W

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2015
Messages
5,276
Reaction score
307
Location
PA, US
I don't have experience with guitars using anything other than hide glue and white glue, so I'm not sure what it could be. But it sounds like someone wasn't thinking about repairability!!

I've never made an acoustic guitar, but gather that hide glue may actually make a difference there, and the more sensitive the guitar (like classical, etc) the more careful luthiers seem to be about glues.

Do you think it's a two part glue of some type?
 

Sgian Dubh

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2004
Messages
2,268
Reaction score
140
Location
UK
... It could be attached with AMG (Asian Mystery Glue). This has baffled luthiers for years, heat doesn't melt it, solvents don't soften it. Some relative of Cascamite??
Can you see a glue line at all? If so, is its colour somewhere close to red/ brown or purple? If yes, it's probably resorcinol formaldehyde, which is commonly used for bonding veneers used in external grade plywood.

I've no good information on breaking the bond, but I'd be a bit surprised if it was used for this purpose in the first place.

Could it be casein adhesive? Just a thought. Slainte.
 

okeydokey

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2014
Messages
142
Reaction score
20
Location
Burgess Hill
I'm sorry to bring this up (and show my lack of knowledge) I don't do enough woodworking to know the ins and outs of the various glues mentioned which make me wonder if I should try one but which? In my day to day/occasional woodworking repairs or making small domestic items I use Evo Stik Wood glue in the blue or green plastic bottles (nasty lid to force glue through so I usually undo it and pour or put a brush in), it always does my job and on testing I find that the wood fibres break away and not the glue fails. This glue hasn't been mentioned though.
Perhaps someone would kindly share a view, thanks
 

marcros

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2011
Messages
10,822
Reaction score
533
Location
Leeds
I'm sorry to bring this up (and show my lack of knowledge) I don't do enough woodworking to know the ins and outs of the various glues mentioned which make me wonder if I should try one but which? In my day to day/occasional woodworking repairs or making small domestic items I use Evo Stik Wood glue in the blue or green plastic bottles (nasty lid to force glue through so I usually undo it and pour or put a brush in), it always does my job and on testing I find that the wood fibres break away and not the glue fails. This glue hasn't been mentioned though.
Perhaps someone would kindly share a view, thanks
It works, it'll be fine! Don't let it freeze though because that will cause you issues as it will with all PVA glues (although some claim to be able to stand a freeze thaw cycle or two, I wouldn't risk it).

There are lots of brands out there. Yours probably only didn't get a mention because there are cheaper ones out there and when people (not me) use them by the litre or 5, the cost difference adds up.
 

Phil Pascoe

Established Member
UKW Supporter
Joined
29 Jan 2012
Messages
19,996
Reaction score
820
Location
Shaft City, Mid Cornish Desert
I'm sorry to bring this up (and show my lack of knowledge) I don't do enough woodworking to know the ins and outs of the various glues mentioned which make me wonder if I should try one but which? In my day to day/occasional woodworking repairs or making small domestic items I use Evo Stik Wood glue in the blue or green plastic bottles (nasty lid to force glue through so I usually undo it and pour or put a brush in), it always does my job and on testing I find that the wood fibres break away and not the glue fails. This glue hasn't been mentioned though.
Perhaps someone would kindly share a view, thanks
Evo Stik sells on its name, it's an old respected brand. It's no better than many others, though, and is expensive for what it is - it's twice the cost of Everbuild D4 (which has better water resistance) and probably three times the cost of 502.
For most uses there's not much purpose served by using anything other than PVA.

Incidentally, it tends to be confusing in these threads when people say they use Gorilla glue, but don't specify which Gorilla glue.
 

Cabinetman

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2017
Messages
1,009
Reaction score
466
Location
Caistor lincolnshire
I'm sorry to bring this up (and show my lack of knowledge) I don't do enough woodworking to know the ins and outs of the various glues mentioned which make me wonder if I should try one but which? In my day to day/occasional woodworking repairs or making small domestic items I use Evo Stik Wood glue in the blue or green plastic bottles (nasty lid to force glue through so I usually undo it and pour or put a brush in), it always does my job and on testing I find that the wood fibres break away and not the glue fails. This glue hasn't been mentioned though.
Perhaps someone would kindly share a view, thanks
It’s quite a long thread this, a while back I mentioned it and that I have used it almost exclusively for years on the furniture that I have built, the tops are a bit nasty as you say, the trick is to get a smaller one – Expensive but you only need to do it once – and keep refilling it from the litre bottle, if the top gets gunky dismantle and slosh it around in very hot water. Ian
 

Exluthier

Member
Joined
3 Aug 2018
Messages
11
Reaction score
3
Location
Bedford
There's PVA and PVA, though - one slips, and the other mostly doesn't. The difference is in the molecular structure of the glue, with the PVA with the aliphatic bond slipping much less (or not at all) and the one with the aromatic bond being much more likely to slip, and to slip even more with increases in clamping / holding pressure. The aromatic chains are sort of circular, or benzine ring-shaped can and pull apart much more easily than the longer, paper-clip-shaped aromatic chains. It used to be the case—perhaps 30 years ago—that the white PVAs were aromatic bonds, and the yellow ones (used a lot by people making modern electric guitars at the time) were aliphatic, and therefore less subject to pulling. Titebond's otherwise laudable effort to provide a pearl glue (it was a clear brown colour) failed because of the formaldehyde which they added to keep the glue from setting in the bottle; it made violin fingerboards fall off, though please don't ask me how I know that. I think they may have re-formulated it by now, as it sounds from other comments here as though it is still in use.
 

Doug71

Established Member
Joined
28 Aug 2016
Messages
1,570
Reaction score
282
Location
Yorkshire
I use PU for most things these days but most of my work is external, windows, doors etc. I have never had a problem with PU and going by how hard it is to get off your hands I reckon it gets a good grip!

Only time I don't use PU is for example on a sash with detailed mouldings where the clean up would be difficult, I normally use Titebond 3 in this situation.

For years I just used any white PVA that was available locally and to be honest the only problems I ever had were temperature related.
 

JohnPW

Established Member
Joined
5 Jun 2013
Messages
787
Reaction score
9
Location
London
Not all! I'm mulling over a neck reset on a friend's acoustic guitar, probably 70s Japan made. It could be attached with AMG (Asian Mystery Glue). This has baffled luthiers for years, heat doesn't melt it, solvents don't soften it. Some relative of Cascamite??

I guess I should ask here, any way of separating a Cascamite (old recipe) joint, short of using a hammer?
One double bass I worked on was glued with something which wasn't hide glue.

The colour was off white, and very hard and tough, I thought it was epoxy but someone said it was casein glue.
 

profchris

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2015
Messages
800
Reaction score
63
Location
Suffolk
I have a cunning plan for my guitar repair, which is first to remove the fingerboard binding. That will let me see the glue line, and if I can release the fingerboard over the body with heat then ...

I'll cut through the fingerboard 2 or 3 frets back from the neck join and remove that portion. That will let me see the joint - it might be dowels + epoxy, in which case the only fix is to saw the neck off o_O. If I see a dovetail or mortice and tenon, I should be able to dig some glue out and see how it responds to heat and solvents, which will tell me what to try next. If it all looks hopeless I can at least put it back together neatly at that point.

This won't happen for a while, but I'll take pics and if it turns out to be interesting I'll post something up in a new thread.
 

Corky

New member
Joined
29 Dec 2020
Messages
2
Reaction score
3
Location
West Yorkshire
I don't like Gorilla glue as it seems to suggest a good bond and then fails under test. When inspecting the joint the foam has covered the surfaces and set hard without bonding. Perhaps I didn't wet the surface well enough!
Does anyone rate Cascamite?
I have a 7 foot solid beech bench with three butt joints running its full length. I made it using Cascamite and some biscuits. I made it over 20 years ago and for the last 10 years, it's been leaning against the side of my house outside, uncovered, through intense summer sun and bitter Yorkshire winters. And we get about 27 inches of rain in an average year. No joint has even begun to open up, not even slightly. No movement whatsoever. I like cascamite...
 

Cabinetman

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2017
Messages
1,009
Reaction score
466
Location
Caistor lincolnshire
Welcome Corky, seems a shame to have that nice benchtop out in the rain but it has proved a point for us, Cascamite is waterproof, they’ve been building boats with it for years, and it’s years since I used it last (thank goodness) recent reports on here that it’s not what it was, so a little research probably needed.
 

GrahamIreland

Established Member
Joined
4 Jun 2015
Messages
214
Reaction score
2
Location
Nottingham
Well I did a glue up with gorilla glue last few evenings, pu glue. I'm happy with it, but just thought maybe a bit pricey.

Difficult to know how tight to clamp together. Wether just a tight squeeze is enough or go hard as you can. I went just tight squeeze at came out fine. Hopefully glue will hold in this cold weather.
 

Phil Pascoe

Established Member
UKW Supporter
Joined
29 Jan 2012
Messages
19,996
Reaction score
820
Location
Shaft City, Mid Cornish Desert
The actual foam in bulk is weak, so I would think the thinner the glue line the better.
I suspect this is common to all adhesives, actually. There was a post a while back where it was mentioned that the ideal clamping pressure for PVA was far and away in excess of what could be put on it in a workshop.
 

Sgian Dubh

Established Member
Joined
12 Oct 2004
Messages
2,268
Reaction score
140
Location
UK
There was a post a while back where it was mentioned that the ideal clamping pressure for PVA was far and away in excess of what could be put on it in a workshop.
Franklin International in guidance on this topic on their PVA/aliphatic resin adhesives recommend a cramping pressure of 100 lbs per square inch for softwoods and up to 250 lbs per square inch for hardwoods. So, for example when edge gluing solid wood panels set a sash cramp roughly 50 mm in from each end of a panel with the rest of the cramps spaced approximately 150- 200 mm (6"- 8") apart, and alternate the cramps on the bottom face and the top face of the assembly, e.g., three cramps on the bottom face and two on the top of a panel roughly 700 mm (28") long. Alternating the cramps top and bottom helps counteract the panel bowing setting cramps all to one side causes. Additionally we should tighten the cramps as tightly as we reasonably can by hand to achieve the required pressure. It is unlikely a woodworker can exactly match the cramping pressure recommended by the manufacturer, but if you tighten up the toggles or bars on the cramps as hard as you can it is my guess you are unlikely to exceed the recommended pressures.

A similar mindset is almost certainly a good idea when doing the same type of edge gluing task with polyurethane adhesives. In this case it is because polyurethane adhesives foam as they cure which, if the parts are not firmly held in place, can force the joint apart. Slainte.
 

Corky

New member
Joined
29 Dec 2020
Messages
2
Reaction score
3
Location
West Yorkshire
Welcome Corky, seems a shame to have that nice benchtop out in the rain but it has proved a point for us, Cascamite is waterproof, they’ve been building boats with it for years, and it’s years since I used it last (thank goodness) recent reports on here that it’s not what it was, so a little research probably needed.
Thanks Cabinetman. Very true (boats). I used it only because an old school craftsman and engineer I knew used it to laminate up some boat rudders he was making for an old wooden boat. He said simply that he used it because it would never come apart. Oh, and after I wrote that thing about the bench I started thinking about how much that wood would cost now. Over £1,000 at a guesa as it could be 3 inches thick and about 2 and a half feet wide. Mahogany involved as an edge hasn't faired so well...
 
Top