condeesteso
Established Member
The price of a box?? Marcros just pointed me to Hawthorne crafts for hinges, and in the gallery there are boxes priced £1450. Worth a look anyway, and very nice components there. http://hawthornecrafts.com/gallery/
Why bother
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Steve Maskery
Established Member
Bob
You have made a very elementary mistake.
Those people are not, and never will be, your target market. They are IKEA's target market, not yours. It's no good even trying to meet their needs, you can't. And they will never know the satisfaction of owning a properly crafted piece.
I shoed a picture of my cheval mirror to a woman at a party once. "Ooh, that's nice", she said, "Why don't you set up as a woodworker, you could sell those".
"What price?, I asked.
"Well they are expensive, I know. But I bet you could get £200 for something like that".
I did refrain from punching her stupid mouth, but I was not very gentlemanly in my reply, the gist of which was that it was a one-off that took 3 weeks and over £300-worth of materials to make. As I left the room, almost in tears, I might add, there was an uncomfortable silence for a moment or two.
Now then, on a broader note (and I say that specifically to separate it from comments about your own piece), I agree that there is a lot of tat at craft stalls. It not all rubbish, but it's not all fine craft either. Where it is good (I'm thinking of Peter Lloyd's boxes, here) the prices reflect the work.
I bet he doesn't sell to your wife's friends either. Or the party silly person.
S
You have made a very elementary mistake.
Those people are not, and never will be, your target market. They are IKEA's target market, not yours. It's no good even trying to meet their needs, you can't. And they will never know the satisfaction of owning a properly crafted piece.
I shoed a picture of my cheval mirror to a woman at a party once. "Ooh, that's nice", she said, "Why don't you set up as a woodworker, you could sell those".
"What price?, I asked.
"Well they are expensive, I know. But I bet you could get £200 for something like that".
I did refrain from punching her stupid mouth, but I was not very gentlemanly in my reply, the gist of which was that it was a one-off that took 3 weeks and over £300-worth of materials to make. As I left the room, almost in tears, I might add, there was an uncomfortable silence for a moment or two.
Now then, on a broader note (and I say that specifically to separate it from comments about your own piece), I agree that there is a lot of tat at craft stalls. It not all rubbish, but it's not all fine craft either. Where it is good (I'm thinking of Peter Lloyd's boxes, here) the prices reflect the work.
I bet he doesn't sell to your wife's friends either. Or the party silly person.
S
thecoder
Established Member
condeesteso":2a5nbzkc said:
I think its worth mentioning that Ian appears in an interview for UTV where he says that he was asked to make a box for the Wedding of William and Kate....He says the buyers must stay anonymous ...A great acolade to a very talented box maker..
Well done Ian if you see this...
MrA
Established Member
"Why bother"
It's a very relevant question and one my wife asked me when I decided to take up woodworking as a hobby. Quite simply it was for my own self satisfaction and sense of achievement, these days practical skills aren't taught in schools to the degree that they were in my day. There's no appreciation for the skill, experience and craftsmanship that goes into making bespoke items, today people tend to value "fashionable", cheap & disposable rubbish more. Not like the days of make and mend of yester year, before my time I may add.
I'm of the opinion that as competition for global resources increases and the costs rise we'll see a return to the make and mend mentality, or maybe I have rose tinted glasses on.
Until then, I'll keep on practicing, learning and enjoying.
It's a very relevant question and one my wife asked me when I decided to take up woodworking as a hobby. Quite simply it was for my own self satisfaction and sense of achievement, these days practical skills aren't taught in schools to the degree that they were in my day. There's no appreciation for the skill, experience and craftsmanship that goes into making bespoke items, today people tend to value "fashionable", cheap & disposable rubbish more. Not like the days of make and mend of yester year, before my time I may add.
I'm of the opinion that as competition for global resources increases and the costs rise we'll see a return to the make and mend mentality, or maybe I have rose tinted glasses on.
Until then, I'll keep on practicing, learning and enjoying.
matthewwh
Established Member
Hi Bob,
How about 'leveraging your key advantages' as management gurus would say.
The importers can't make a box to the customer's specifications - you could.
If you had a few examples on show in different sizes with guide prices and a swatch of different timbers to choose from, then took commissions for boxes sized to the customer's requirements - welcome to the bespoke market and the assumption people have that they could never afford anything custom made.
David Linley has a shop in Belgravia selling handmade wooden pieces, it is essentially the most upmarket craft stall in the world. If you are in town go and have a look, it may surprise you just how much people are prepared to part with in exchange for stock items let alone bespoke ones.
There will always be the odd 'I can get that on eBay for a fiver' people. A courteous 'be my guest' and start talking to the next person in the queue and they'll probably take their revised attitude to the back and line up again for a second look.
Objective criticism wise, you could try using thinner timber (the primary advantage of hardwoods is that their strength accommodates a propensity for delicacy), avoiding common dimensions (if it's 12mm thick it will automatically look like everything else that is 12mm thick), selecting more highly figured timber (you can hand plane timbers that a machine would anihilate), perhaps even introducing curves? To me your dovetails are clearly hand cut, and to a very high standard indeed, but they are regular, which to a layman suggests machine work. The hand skills you have give you the freedom to explore the boundless possibilities of varied spacing, proportions, angles - play with them!
If you get the opportunity to spend some time with a child under five they can teach you more about playing and experimenting in five minutes flat than you could teach them in a lifetime.
How about 'leveraging your key advantages' as management gurus would say.
The importers can't make a box to the customer's specifications - you could.
If you had a few examples on show in different sizes with guide prices and a swatch of different timbers to choose from, then took commissions for boxes sized to the customer's requirements - welcome to the bespoke market and the assumption people have that they could never afford anything custom made.
David Linley has a shop in Belgravia selling handmade wooden pieces, it is essentially the most upmarket craft stall in the world. If you are in town go and have a look, it may surprise you just how much people are prepared to part with in exchange for stock items let alone bespoke ones.
There will always be the odd 'I can get that on eBay for a fiver' people. A courteous 'be my guest' and start talking to the next person in the queue and they'll probably take their revised attitude to the back and line up again for a second look.
Objective criticism wise, you could try using thinner timber (the primary advantage of hardwoods is that their strength accommodates a propensity for delicacy), avoiding common dimensions (if it's 12mm thick it will automatically look like everything else that is 12mm thick), selecting more highly figured timber (you can hand plane timbers that a machine would anihilate), perhaps even introducing curves? To me your dovetails are clearly hand cut, and to a very high standard indeed, but they are regular, which to a layman suggests machine work. The hand skills you have give you the freedom to explore the boundless possibilities of varied spacing, proportions, angles - play with them!
If you get the opportunity to spend some time with a child under five they can teach you more about playing and experimenting in five minutes flat than you could teach them in a lifetime.
condeesteso
Established Member
Matthew is closing in on an interesting fundamental I think. I think it was James Krenov that spoke about 'leaving fingerprints'... I took that to mean marks that define what you do.
Working in ways that machines can't (or cannot economically) is important. Hand-cut dovetails (I mean no marking out!), odd section stock, impossible grains (for a machine), bookmatching faces, hand-turned knobs that are close... It's just something I have been more aware of in recent years, and I now consciously try to develop. It will be missed by the casual eye, but to a discerning few it can be a 'handmade and very well' signature.
There's a famous Persian (I think) rug into which they always stitch a flaw... because only God can be perfect.
Working in ways that machines can't (or cannot economically) is important. Hand-cut dovetails (I mean no marking out!), odd section stock, impossible grains (for a machine), bookmatching faces, hand-turned knobs that are close... It's just something I have been more aware of in recent years, and I now consciously try to develop. It will be missed by the casual eye, but to a discerning few it can be a 'handmade and very well' signature.
There's a famous Persian (I think) rug into which they always stitch a flaw... because only God can be perfect.
Has anyone read Peter Lloyd's book "Making Heirloom Boxes"?
While visiting the Lakes earlier this year I visited Blackwell, one of my favourite houses. Not much in the way of furniture but it is a beautiful Arts & Crafts house.
In the gift shop there is a Peter Lloyd box at £400.
Eat your heart out!
I'm not sure how long it has been there.
While visiting the Lakes earlier this year I visited Blackwell, one of my favourite houses. Not much in the way of furniture but it is a beautiful Arts & Crafts house.
In the gift shop there is a Peter Lloyd box at £400.
Eat your heart out!
I'm not sure how long it has been there.
Loads of really great points. I love condeesteso's quote
It's very true that I am not trying to sell to the Ikea market. I have been asked about a coffee table and TV stand, in 2" oak, similar to one in Argos. The price, Argos do the two for about £45. My materials will be over £300.
Can I say, thank you all for responding and it has gone a long way to cheering me up. I felt a lot like Steve with his mirror, somehow cheated and devalued. But after all is said and done, the box is for my wife to put on her dressing table and she loves it. And that is all that really matters. I am no more than a hobby woodworker, but I take my hat off to all of you that make a living from it. To run into attitudes like those described here must make you feel, "Why Bother".
Bob
Who feels one heck of a lot better now.
BTW. Ian's boxes are something else!
and Matthew's point about timber thickness and grain. It all sums up hand made. I have to say I hadn't considered that my dovetails being evenly spaced look less hand cut. Rob Cosman, one of the people I learnt from, lays out tails with dividers and so gets them evenly spaced and the same size. I do the same.
It's very true that I am not trying to sell to the Ikea market. I have been asked about a coffee table and TV stand, in 2" oak, similar to one in Argos. The price, Argos do the two for about £45. My materials will be over £300.
Can I say, thank you all for responding and it has gone a long way to cheering me up. I felt a lot like Steve with his mirror, somehow cheated and devalued. But after all is said and done, the box is for my wife to put on her dressing table and she loves it. And that is all that really matters. I am no more than a hobby woodworker, but I take my hat off to all of you that make a living from it. To run into attitudes like those described here must make you feel, "Why Bother".
Bob
Who feels one heck of a lot better now.
BTW. Ian's boxes are something else!
Halo Jones
Established Member
I remember reading in (I think an American) woodworking magazine last year about a guy that made wooden spoons by hand. These were beautiful but he was competing against the 40p wooden spoon that we would buy out of any supermarket and basically the only appreciable household income was from his wife.
I would not think twice about trashing a 40p wooden spoon while cooking and dishwashering the living daylights out of it but we have a little spoon, hand made from bone, that we use to feed our kids while teething and it has been in the family for at least three generations. Three times a day it gets washed by hand and placed back in the drawer and I often think about all the family who have used this before.
I hope that guy gets to keep making his spoons and is never disheartened!
H.
I would not think twice about trashing a 40p wooden spoon while cooking and dishwashering the living daylights out of it but we have a little spoon, hand made from bone, that we use to feed our kids while teething and it has been in the family for at least three generations. Three times a day it gets washed by hand and placed back in the drawer and I often think about all the family who have used this before.
I hope that guy gets to keep making his spoons and is never disheartened!
H.
Mark A
Established Member
Lovely box Bob! Don't be disheartened by naive people grossly underestimating the value of your craftsmanship.
I had to go to HomeSense tonight and while I was waiting I inspected the furniture for sale. It's all "shabby chic" style, painted in washed out creams and greys etc with areas where the paint has been rubbed off to give the impression of age. Almost all of it is made from MDF (I took out draws and tipped tables up to look at the underside) and some even have loose tongues, dowels and bridle joints painted on to give the impression that they're authentic.
THIS is the level most people are happy with, enough to spend £220 on a flimsy bedside table costing about £7 to make, so it's no wonder that they cannot recognise a quality item.
I think it's a similar situation for most people and businesses selling goods or services. We've had people incredulously question the price of removals or the time it takes at sea for containers to get to Cyprus or Australia! "it only takes 5 hours when we fly there, how come it takes 11 days by boat?" Er..... :lol: If only Maersk Line had one of THESE!
Mark
I had to go to HomeSense tonight and while I was waiting I inspected the furniture for sale. It's all "shabby chic" style, painted in washed out creams and greys etc with areas where the paint has been rubbed off to give the impression of age. Almost all of it is made from MDF (I took out draws and tipped tables up to look at the underside) and some even have loose tongues, dowels and bridle joints painted on to give the impression that they're authentic.
THIS is the level most people are happy with, enough to spend £220 on a flimsy bedside table costing about £7 to make, so it's no wonder that they cannot recognise a quality item.
I think it's a similar situation for most people and businesses selling goods or services. We've had people incredulously question the price of removals or the time it takes at sea for containers to get to Cyprus or Australia! "it only takes 5 hours when we fly there, how come it takes 11 days by boat?" Er..... :lol: If only Maersk Line had one of THESE!
Mark
sometimewoodworker
Established Member
What you have found is the reason why I won't usually sell my work. I will give them as a present but if I sell then I will not accept less than £25 per hour, and that would be to a good friend.
Now that may seem too low to you but the minimum daily wage where I work is £8. So I will charge 3 days local per hour. I feel my time is worth it. I won't make a living or even sell any of my work but I don't care and won't compete on price
Now that may seem too low to you but the minimum daily wage where I work is £8. So I will charge 3 days local per hour. I feel my time is worth it. I won't make a living or even sell any of my work but I don't care and won't compete on price
Benchwayze
Established Member
Racers":11j18d50 said:
In these circumstances I usually tell them honestly; 'Unless you really want a unique box, you'd be better off going to IKEA, or ARGOS, etc..'
If they ask me why, I ask them what would they expect to pay for shoes at Asda, a dedicated shoe-shop; or if they have the money, a custom shoemaker They usually 'get it.'
John
tomatwark
Established Member
A very famous furniture company carves a mouse on their furniture.
The story behind this goes that one of Robert Thompson's craftsmen said we are all as poor as church mice and he carved a mouse on a church screen they were making.
Although they now sell their stuff for alot of money it has taken a few generations to get there.
It has always been the case that very few people make alot lot of money out of woodworking and if that is what you are wanting, stick to doing it as a hobby and become an MP or a banker.
I make a living but will never be rich BUT I enjoy what I do and at the end of the day that is also important.
Tom
The story behind this goes that one of Robert Thompson's craftsmen said we are all as poor as church mice and he carved a mouse on a church screen they were making.
Although they now sell their stuff for alot of money it has taken a few generations to get there.
It has always been the case that very few people make alot lot of money out of woodworking and if that is what you are wanting, stick to doing it as a hobby and become an MP or a banker.
I make a living but will never be rich BUT I enjoy what I do and at the end of the day that is also important.
Tom
custard
Established Member
Steve Maskery":2dx10qnc said:
Steve, why would want to punch "her stupid mouth"? She complimented your work and told you that in her opinion it was of a marketable standard.
I've bought your DVD's, but I'll hesitate to say how good they are in case you then rush at me with tears in your eyes and arms flailing!
Steve Maskery
Established Member
Hi Custard
I was offended because she clearly hadn't got a clue what she was looking at. She thought it was worth £200, I'd expect to see it at Cheltenham with a 3K ticket on it. Different worlds.
If you say my DVs are good I promise not to assault you.
S
I was offended because she clearly hadn't got a clue what she was looking at. She thought it was worth £200, I'd expect to see it at Cheltenham with a 3K ticket on it. Different worlds.
If you say my DVs are good I promise not to assault you.
S
woodbloke
Established Member
When I made my Inghamish box a while ago, I showed it to someone who was fairly impressed with it and said..."Ooooh, that's got to be worth at least £50!" When I pointed out to her that the hinges alone cost nearly that much (smartHinges) and it took over a hundred hours to make, she was a bit crestfallen. I don't think people really have any idea about what stuff is actually worth because most of what they base their assumptions on is the stuff they see in Ikea :-& and Argos :-& - Rob
I think you guys are getting a bit worked up about nothing. You are taking comments as personal slights which were probably given with the intention of being a compliment.
If you are serious about selling your work, just asking any Joe Public is likely to result in a superficially low price, because they will immediately think about what similair items (made abroad, CNC etc) sell for.
The only way you will get a realistic value for the hundreds of hours you put into a project is to find somebody who is willing to pay for that -ie somebody who will commission the piece and is prepared to pay for the privilege. I suspect that 99.9% of the public would rather buy the mass produced item which looks very similair.
Cheers
Karl
If you are serious about selling your work, just asking any Joe Public is likely to result in a superficially low price, because they will immediately think about what similair items (made abroad, CNC etc) sell for.
The only way you will get a realistic value for the hundreds of hours you put into a project is to find somebody who is willing to pay for that -ie somebody who will commission the piece and is prepared to pay for the privilege. I suspect that 99.9% of the public would rather buy the mass produced item which looks very similair.
Cheers
Karl
xy mosian
Established Member
I wonder if a part of the problem is because the vast majority of people have never actually made anything. Therefore they have no idea of the care and time involved.
My own, perhaps worst example, came after a French Polisher asked me to make a piece of architrave to match a worm eaten piece.
The required piece, in softwood was about seven feet long and 8 inches wide, the largest piece of architrave I ever handled. Now I managed, using router, hollows, rounds and carving gouges to make a reasonably good match. When fitting the customer came in, I was introduced and the quality of the work pointed out. The customers response? "I suppose it's alright, but it will always be covered by curtains, why did you bother? I nearly exploded and left very quickly.
As I drove home I came up with this:-
The situation's simple
It's clear for all to see
The only one who gives a *****
Is the one that I call me.
Keep spreading the good word.
xy
My own, perhaps worst example, came after a French Polisher asked me to make a piece of architrave to match a worm eaten piece.
The required piece, in softwood was about seven feet long and 8 inches wide, the largest piece of architrave I ever handled. Now I managed, using router, hollows, rounds and carving gouges to make a reasonably good match. When fitting the customer came in, I was introduced and the quality of the work pointed out. The customers response? "I suppose it's alright, but it will always be covered by curtains, why did you bother? I nearly exploded and left very quickly.
As I drove home I came up with this:-
The situation's simple
It's clear for all to see
The only one who gives a *****
Is the one that I call me.
Keep spreading the good word.
xy
TheTiddles
Established Member
ok, calm down dears, we don't wany anyone doing a "Cosman"!
I make things for people, if they ask, at the cost of the materials plus a little to cover tooling etc... I do this as I really like making different things. Commercially it would never work, but that's not why I do it.
If I make something for someone who knows me, as a present, they know what I've put into it and hopefully it shows. Similarly, when someone makes something especially for you, there really is something special about it. Spending thousands on a wedding present for someone isn't somthing I'm in a position to do to often, but hundreds of hours to make something individual, more likely. That's why I bother.
This weekend it's a custom stair gate for a chubby King Charles spaniel.
Aidan
I make things for people, if they ask, at the cost of the materials plus a little to cover tooling etc... I do this as I really like making different things. Commercially it would never work, but that's not why I do it.
If I make something for someone who knows me, as a present, they know what I've put into it and hopefully it shows. Similarly, when someone makes something especially for you, there really is something special about it. Spending thousands on a wedding present for someone isn't somthing I'm in a position to do to often, but hundreds of hours to make something individual, more likely. That's why I bother.
This weekend it's a custom stair gate for a chubby King Charles spaniel.
Aidan
kostello
Established Member
TheTiddles":2n2ka5ob said:
i agree
when my brother announced he was to be wed i spent ages wondering what to do for a present.................
after weeks of thought it came to me..................
i spent a week making him an iroko garden bench..........
needless to say he and his missus were thrilled.........
(it was definately an improvement on the solar powered gnome he got for christmas!!!!!)
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