What timber for front door?

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dzj":16ofi40a said:
Does anyone know the name of that mid-rail to stile joint?
It's a type of "gunstock" joint, designed to join the through moulding (bevel) on the lower parts of the stiles to the unmoulded upper part where the moulding is stopped instead. A bit fussy. Usually much more like a gun stock in shape where a wide stile is reduced to maximise glazing in the upper half, opposite way around to this one.
I wouldn't worry about building regs - repair of old door is fine even if it approaches 100% new bits.
 
Steve Maskery":1etxasu7 said:
There is no difference at all in strength between a Domino joint and a "proper" M&T joint of the same dimensions. Just don't assume that one domino in those sections will be enough. But you can make the mortices longer and either double up the Doms, or cut you own floating tenons. And you can also cut double tenons easier than with conventional techniques.
On a door like that you could use the Domino machine to cut the mortices right through, by working from each side. Then square up with a chisel for a more authentic appearance.

FWIW, this is how I made a couple of very big doors, at least as big and heavy as yours.
post1067733.html#p1067733
I have to make half a dozen interior doors. If it were just one I do the proper M&T, but 6? I've bought a big Dom. Not used it yet, but I have no doubt that I shall end up with excellent doors that are made in half the time.

Domino is a tool, it's not a religion :)

The thing that a M&T resists better than a domino is twist. It fixes the relationship of the two pieces of timber far more securely against twist than a domino ever could, especially if pegged. The fundamental structural design consideration, in my view, of all traditional British joinery and carpentry back to early mediaeval and possibly beyond, was resisting twist.......and without a properly designed and constructed M&T your door would be vulnerable to this force.
 
The glasswork on the original door is really nice (in my opinion), if you were going to make a new door would you try and salvage it somehow? It would be a shame to throw it out since you can't get glass like that anymore without spending serious amounts of cash.

You could repair the door, but patching in and doing a decent job of it is very difficult, perhaps more difficult than actually making a new door. I've seen plenty of doors that have been "repaired" and after a year or so all the patching and filling begins to show after the patch timber moves with the humidity irrespective to the original timber and the joints pop and crack open, making the door look a shambles. There's perhaps one person I know that could actually do a good job of repairing a door and making it last, everyone else's work including mine would just be a ticking time bomb until it's back to where it was before it was repaired, which usually isn't long.

Now, Steve Maskery rightfully mentioned that you can't use PVA or anything waterbased with Accoya, which I kind of forgot when I mentioned that Accoya would be a good choice that there's quite a few little niggles #-o. For gluing Accoya you need to use a foaming polyurethane glue such as Soudal 45P, Lumberjack PU, Wurth PU, Reca slow set PU, etc... It's a really rapidly setting glue and not particularly suited to a beginner really as it might go off before you can actually get the door together, you might have a chance with a really slow setting version. Another consideration with Accoya is fitments and fixings, It eats iron for breakfast, literally and figuratively. The timber contains a high concentration of acetic acid (which is completely harmless to humans) which corrodes regular steel fixings in a matter of days which isn't an understatement, I put in some temporary passivated steel screws into some hinges on an Accoya door and replaced them in 3 days and the passivation on the screws had disappeared and the screw thread in the timber was orange with rust. 316 Marine grade stainless steel must be used otherwise you'll be replacing hardware often, and 316 is not cheap. Another thing to consider with Accoya which hasn't been mentioned I think is how soft and brittle it is, it's an excellent timber to work with machines but hand working it is a nightmare unless you have absolutely razor-sharp tools with lower than usual angles as the end grain tends to chip out rather than cut shavings, the same goes for the long grain as it's very difficult to hand plane from experience. Accoya seems to respond best to rotary cutting such as spindle moulders, planers and circular saws and leaves a lovely finish when cut this way. It dents very easily on the early grain and it also sands away far quicker on the early grain which can create a bit of a wavy finish to the paint surface. As has been already mentioned, the timber isn't the greatest quality at the moment and there seems to be a lot of tension in the boards from over-cooking. Just today, I was ripping some 8" x 2 1/2" down the middle to make door stiles and the two pieces bowed at least a half an inch each after the tension was released, after being straightened and planed 4-square they were mortices and rebated, the rebate took away material which resulted in the timber bowing once again, fortunately this matters not so much with a 3-rail door such as yours but for a 2-rail pattern 10 style door this isn't a great attribute. So it's best to buy the material in the sizes you need such as 4" x 2 1/2" stiles and top rail with 8" x 2 1/2" mid and bottom rails, rather than buying bigger planks and getting smaller sizes from it, the smaller pieces which have already been cut to a certain size won't bow as much because you won't be releasing as much tension as ripping a large plank down the middle. Other than those niggles, it's a great material as you never have to go back to a job because "My doors swollen up can you please plane it for me" or "All the T+G boards have shrunk and I can see my neighbour staring at me through the gaps" :lol:

If you do make a new door from Accoya, the construction admittedly doesn't need to be as bulletproof as any other timber since it doesn't move massive amounts which would stress the joints in a normal door. I through mortice and tenon all my work since that's what is set up and it takes no time at all because everything is set up for the job, does it make for a better and more stable door in regular softwood and hardwoods? It certainly does. In Accoya, I'm not so sure if it's that critical comparatively, the construction needs to be strong as the timber itself is weak but I don't think you need to go as over the top like a traditional door with through wedged M+T joints, I think good amount of well-sized dominos and good PU glue would hold very well since the wood is basically like a sponge and absorbs glue like no other and the modern glues hold very well.

I would recommend George Ellis' "Modern Practical Joinery" as a bit of reference material, it may be over 100 years old but it's a gud'un! :D
 
having now seen the door, I'm not sure I'd want to replace it either, it has a lot of character and looks well made, a repair really would have be tastefully done from very well seasoned/acclimated wood which as trevanion points out really isn't an easy job.
 
I'm pretty sure that if you could get the glass panels out intact, you could get them incorporated into a modern Double Glazed unit.
Well worth doing if you can.
S
 
Steve Maskery":29e64560 said:
I'm pretty sure that if you could get the glass panels out intact, you could get them incorporated into a modern Double Glazed unit.
Well worth doing if you can.
S

It would be certainly interesting to find out if you could, I'm not sure if you could do it with the old glass exposed externally in any way though as I can almost guarantee the leadwork won't be 100% leak-proof when it comes to gas and will let condensation in.
 
Whilst you can do that, I really wouldn't. It will always look very different from the panels either side, and there is a real falseness about the result. It's not quite as bad a stuck-on fake leadwork, or stone cladding, but it's heading in that direction.
 
MikeG.":yt9sdwuw said:
It's not quite as bad a stuck-on fake leadwork, or stone cladding, but it's heading in that direction.

Ever noticed how plastic doors are always trying to look like "wood grain effect" doors and painted wooden doors are always trying to look "as smooth as plastic"?

Weird :lol:
 
Trevanion":mm53re3t said:
I would recommend George Ellis' "Modern Practical Joinery" as a bit of reference material, it may be over 100 years old but it's a gud'un! :D
I would echo this recommendation, it's an excellent book, covers almost everything you need to know.
 
I think we all agree that the best solution is to fix the original.
2nd best is to re-make the original using traditional techniques.

The question therefore is what to do if these two options are not viable.

I'm simply suggesting that a well-made domino door is better than a poorly-made traditional door.

Mike, that is a good point about twist. It is usually dealt with by a haunch, is it not? It would be a little bit more work, but I'm sure it would be quite straightforward to incorporate a haunch into a Domino joint.

I'm not trying to flog the Domino here, I'm just trying to put its strengths and weaknesses into perspective. TBH I'd much rather people build and use the Ultimate Tablesaw / Bandsaw (delete as appropriate) Tenon Jig.
 
I’m the diverse opinion here! The door is poorly made, the dimensions of the styles and rails is not IMO adequate for the job they are being asked to do. The styles should have gun stock tenons to allow for larger lights whilst enabling sufficient thickness and proper proportions for the panelled area. Jacob has highlighted that the top rail is far too thin. The doors are warped and twisted and with those dimensions have probably been hacked to death to try and keep it true / correct for the sagging. I’d leave it where it is whilst I made a new one.

The middle rail really needs a gun stock tenon, this will maintain the thin styles for the lights and to do this you really need Use traditional mortice and Tenon joints. If your using them for the middle rail, you might as well use them for all of the rails!

The trickiest bit will be getting those lights out of the existing door. I would do this as an early job and replace them with either timber or cheap single glazing.

IMO there would be far more work and effort in trying to mend that door than there would be in making a new one. I feel that any restoration will only create a door that will inevitably and quickly fail again.
 
deema":3hycpga4 said:
I’m the diverse opinion here! The door is poorly made, the dimensions of the styles and rails is not IMO adequate for the job they are being asked to do.

I thought 105mm stiles and top rail was fairly substantial, my standard ones are 95mm :?. Any bigger and the wood overpowers everything else.

Diminished stile doors are nice and all but they're a right pain in the neck to make even for someone with a lot of experience, it would blow a beginner's mind :lol:.
 
deema":3hxfysvp said:
I’m the diverse opinion here! The door is poorly made,
Well it's lasted 100 years or so. Poorly maintained more like it
....
The trickiest bit will be getting those lights out of the existing door. I would do this as an early job and replace them with either timber or cheap single glazing.
The glass is the best bit and well worth conserving. To lose it would be architectural vandalism
IMO there would be far more work and effort in trying to mend that door than there would be in making a new one. .....
Only if the new one was modern rubbish.
 
Steve Maskery":312ve8m6 said:
....
I'm not trying to flog the Domino here, I'm just trying to put its strengths and weaknesses into perspective. TBH I'd much rather people build and use the Ultimate Tablesaw / Bandsaw (delete as appropriate) Tenon Jig.
Price of a Domino you could buy a proper grown-up mortice machine! Why F about?
 
Jacob":y70f7guf said:
Price of a Domino you could buy a proper grown-up mortice machine! Why F about?
I agree, Jacob (sorry I just need to lie down for a moment...)
And that is the main problem with the Domino, it is very pricey.
But it is quick and, within its limitations, it does a superb job (you'll just have to take my word on that as you have never actually used one) and it does it quickly. It also takes up a lot less space than a dedicated mortiser, which matters a lot to many a home woodie.
As I say, I don't have an axe to grind here, I'm just trying to put the pros and cons.
 
Jacob, firstly my bad, I meant remove the lights first from the existing door to save for the new door, and replace them with either wood or cheap grazing.

The door may be 100 years old, but age is definitely no defence or reason why it wasn’t made with poor aesthetics.

You could only repair that door shoddily faster than you could make a new one properly. However I accept that not everyone is as quick at making things properly! So you may have a point!
 
Steve Maskery":2k38qrt7 said:
..... (you'll just have to take my word on that as you have never actually used one) ....
I have actually. I bought one in the hopes that it would replace a morticer but it wouldn't and I didn't think it would pay its keep so I sold it on.
 
In that case I am presumptuous and I apologise.
I can only imagine that you were expecting too much from it. You have to compare like with like. If you expect a little domino to replace a big mortiser, you are likely to be disappointed.
 
I just thought I would put peoples minds at rest about the glass.

There is absolutely no way that the glass is going to be damaged/destroyed. It is the original Victorian glass. There is some debate as to the manufacturer as we are only about 3 miles from a place called Merton Abbey Mills Where William Morris had his textile factory. Now much of the glass is in the style of William Morris, a trip to The Red House in Bexleyheath where William Morris lived confirmed such. It’s not confirmed to actually be William Morris, but it’s a nice story.

Interestingly, there has been much talk about trades and the lack/difficulty of finding good ones. Not so with stained glass. What they do is astonishing.

The glass is easily removed and re-installed. We’ve done it where necessary. The idea of putting the glass into a double glazed unit is something I have investigated. It’s called encapsulation. I decided not to go ahead with this because finding someone to do it is the same old trades problem, it does detract from the look of the glass and the area of glass is not so great as to make any real energy savings.

Anyway, I hope that puts people's minds at rest regarding the glass.
 

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