What do you charge - bathroom locks/doors

[paulrbarnard]

There in lies the biggest problem, I would suggest most "homeowners" are oblivious to the requirements of Part P etc, and whilst they can happily go into one of the sheds and buy anything they wish, and carry out work with no comprehension of the regs, nothing is going to stop them.

The situation with electrical is exactly what I mean I don’t want to see for all trades. I am trained and qualified for electrical work but don’t work in the sector. To provide the appropriate sign off I would have to pay significant sums to NICEIC.

For sure this doesn’t stop the numpties from just doing it but those who actually do know what their doing and are aware of the legal aspects it then becomes a significant blocker.

I would hate to see the same for the other trades which the original suggestion of regulation would likely lead to.

 

[niall Y]

I think that @paulrbarnard is right in sounding a note of caution here. Shoddy electrical work can easily lead to death, or harm - as apposed to something like shoddy painting and decorating. There is a hierarchy of trades, that are capable of causing the most harm, and the insurance market has already categorised these as you can tell from the varying cost of 'public liability insurance' for each..
We can all be too hasty in saying "something 'shouldn't be allowed" or that "something should be done to stop it", but I think that further restrictions on the trades, or further red tape, would not be helpful.

 

[deema]

The problem with regulation is that you need people who are fully skilled and educated in the subject to administer it. People with these skills are few and far between and won’t be administrating the systems, they are attracted to far better paying positions. So, you are left with the incompetent overseeing the potentially competent!

 

[HOJ]

I am trained and qualified for electrical work but don’t work in the sector

I too come from an electrical background but industrial rather than domestic, I still do some electrical work but on the basis it isn't under Part P. I was full NICEIC then dropped to just part P which was a complete joke when it came to annual inspections, where the "inspector" would come to my home and watch me test a couple of circuits, show them my insurance certificate & a couple of documents, and that was it, needless to say I no longer "subscribe", I bought a new Megger multi function tester last year that cost £1000.00 as my old gear got damaged in a flood, so I can still check and verify everything I do, which is something a householder can't....so i still don't see how this regulation works, therefore wouldn't work for most other thing's either.

I had a set too earlier this year with a Sparkie who did an EICR on my Mum's 20 year old house, he raised a code 2 non compliance, which wasn't, to try and squeeze some more money out of 90 year old widow (he wasn't registered either).

 

[HappyHacker]

Having been registered for Part P of Building regs for a few years it appeared to me to be a money making enterprise for the providers. I gave up registration when they reduced the requirements for reporting in England and the number of domestic jobs I did not justify the cost. There have been a number of takeovers/mergers in the providers and changes in the rules to try and make the electrical trade more professional. As a result I would not longer qualify for Part P registration unless I take a trade exam to prove competence as I did not do an apprenticeship 50 years ago. I do have the old and new C&G exams that they require. Some who did an apprenticeship are also in the same boat. I am told the cost would be about £3,000 to prove that I can still do what I have been doing for years in domestic, commercial and agricultural environments. I am glad to now be retired.

Also there is no enforcement of Part P. The only prosecutions I have seen are related to people who have fallen fowl of gas regulations who then get Part P non compliance thrown in for good measure.

The number of deaths due to faulty electrical work had been falling steadily for a number of years then when Part P was introduced I am told they continued to fall afterwards but not as quickly!

But the Part P schemes generally used to register businesses and only one person in the business needed to be registered to sign of the work. This resulted in one person having to sign off the certificates for hundreds of jobs a week that they have never seen. The work may have been a complete bodge but who will know. Look up the inquest on Emma Shaw to see the results.

While I would like to see a method of ensuring the competence of trades people I fear that the money making opportunities for the registration bodies will result in a mess that benefits no one but the registration body.

I have worked with lots of trades people who without any relevant qualifications take pride in their work and do an excellent job and many others who despite all the qualifications I would not trust to make the tea. if those who have doing it well for years have to start paying money and get qualifications to prove they are competent I would expect they will not bother.

Apart from ranting about Part P I can also do long rants on the rules for mandatory Electrical Inspections for rental properties, metal consumer units and AFDs (Arc Fault Detectors)

 

[HOJ]

I have worked with lots of trades people who without any relevant qualifications take pride in their work and do an excellent job and many others who despite all the qualifications I would not trust to make the tea. if those who have doing it well for years have to start paying money and get qualifications to prove they are competent I would expect they will not bother.

Absolutely agree.

Apart from ranting about Part P I can also do long rants on the rules for mandatory Electrical Inspections for rental properties, metal consumer units and AFDs (Arc Fault Detectors)

You didn't mention SPD's !

 

[HappyHacker]

You didn't mention SPD's !

I have mixed feelings about those as having lived in my current house for over 40 years I recently had two nearby lightning strikes which wiped out my wireless phone base station and the internet modem. Apparently the strikes wiped out numerous phone splitters and master sockets locally. Obviously it was the phone lines which brought the spikes in. But with lots of overhead 11Kv and 230/400 V cables locally the risk is there and I have quite a few socket strips with surge protection where the protected light has gone out so I need to check them to see if they are still providing protection or has the LED failed. Hopefully before I need them again.

I am now on FTP so the phone route for a spike has disappeared.

The big issue I see is will they ever get checked by the householder to see if they are still active, perhaps when they test their RCD twice a year and the cost of replacement modules when they expire.

 

[HOJ]

lived in my current house for over 40 years

Close on for me as well. all overheads, but like you now on fiber (which really peeves people off as I'm in the middle of the country side, thanks to the Cill payment scheme!!).
I did have a UPS system with surge protection in the past, never kicked in, so it gave up in the end..

when they test their RCD twice a year

I tell my clients they need to be exercised, the RCD's that is, the blank look says it all.

 

[Adam W.]

Snip

While I would like to see a method of ensuring the competence of trades people I fear that the money making opportunities for the registration bodies will result in a mess that benefits no one but the registration body.
/snip

You just need to take a look at NVQ assessment and CSCS to see that attempts at belated mass registration for construction workers doesn't work very well.

When you take an NVQ assessment, the assessor normaly doesn't get paid by the training company they work for until you have passed, so it is in their interest to make sure that you pass, even though you may not be quite as competent as you should be.

I worked recently with a chap who was supposed to have an NVQ2 in site carpentry and he couldn't even make a simple crate to take a rolled shutter. He was completely hopeless yet had a blue skilled worker CSCS card.

 

[johnnyb]

site work is simply impossible to get unless your 18 and part of a big company. these things are sewn up. why I haven't got a clue as they are always in demand .

 

[Adam W.]

They are all agency workers, very few people are actually employed directly by the firms they work for.

 

[HappyHacker]

My BIL used to be safety officer in a construction company. They were having a visit from a HSE person who picked up that one of their JCB/tracked digger drivers (Pat) did not have any qualifications. BIL explained that Pat had worked for the company for over 13 years without incident and was the go to driver for any difficult work. HSE person said it was not acceptable. BIL said if you are working in a trench who do you want driving a nearby digger, someone who passed the course last week or Pat who had being driving them every working day for over 13 years without issue. The HSE person harrumphed and said no more.

He had lots more stories like that including an agency rigger, who they learned had just passed his course the week before, after causing a full plastic container of mortar to drop 4 stories onto the back of the pickup delivering it, writing the pick up off and plastering the fronts of the shops opposite in a pedestrianised area in a large city. At the HSE interview he was asked why it had not been reported to HSE. BIL replied "It was not a reportable accident, but we were ******** lucky that no one was killed"

 

[Dave Moore]

My opinion is a lot more trades should have to be registered and licensed with the council or some other authority so they can be held account properly for the work that they do.
The fact that anyone can potentially carry out major alterations on houses running into the tens of thousands of pounds of work without any proper registration / licensing scheme is insane

Hi,
The only problem with registration is we have a mass shortage of tradesmen and it still doesn’t weed out the dross having a certificate. I recently retired from the engineering construction trade after 50 yrs as a pipe fitter/welder, the last 8 yrs as a construction manager office based, quoting, ordering, hiring and firing etc. Myself and my peers have been saying since the 80’s that the result of not training apprentices was going to result in where we are now. Successive government failure to train apprentices has led to a massive shortage all spurred on by war criminal Blair saying everyone should go to university. Now nobody wants to do manual labour And a piece of paper doesn’t mean you can do the job as experience has shown me, it doesn’t mean that you are a competent doctor, brain surgeon, nurse , solicitor, builder or tradesman, fill in the gaps for those I have missed. I am shortly starting on another house refurb once the step daughter has moved into her house and I told her I would rather do my own work although she said you can’t be an expert at everything. I told her ‘no, but I can do a better job than all these cowboys, take my time and have pride in the job, anything I can’t do I’ll get a decent builder in but only if necessary.’
Regards,
Dave

 

[Dave Moore]

And I bet he has loads of work.makes me sick , I’ve said it before that I’m not a professional but I can do several trades to a good standard even though I’ve only ever been trained and accredited for gas installations and service . Yet these cowboys are still in business- I bet he has the words “ master builder “ they prey on the vulnerable, or those who don’t have the knowledge to know what is right and wrong, they can sweet talk there way around any situation, they promise to deliver knowing they won’t. I tell all my customers that I can do the work but I have no qualifications. Once completed my work speaks for itself. These fraudsters should be publicly exposed and held accountable. The odd one now and again gets jailed but it just the tip of the iceberg.

This guy actually works for a building company that does insurance work and he supervises the work So actually steals materials from his company to use in his jobs on the side and even though he has been reported to the company they still employ him!

 

[Fergie 307]

I normally try and look for the positives but struggling here. Due to a rotator cuff tear had to pull the trigger on a tradesman fitting the oak doors. Went through checkatrade, found best reviewed etc....

I could talk about the butcher approach to hinges/latches.

I could talk about the butcher approach to cutting the doors to size.

I could talk about the use of filler to hide error cuts in new oak doors in pretty plumb frames.

I could talk about the lack of pilot holes and bored out screw heads at random angles.

I could talk about none of the hinges being recessed into the frame and double recessed into the door.

But...


What's killing me. Is whilst applying Osmo door oil I can hear the doors "wobble". And then it hits me, this well reviewed "joiner and carpenter" has drilled the deep bathroom latches into the mid mortice and tenon joint.

I'm at an anger level well beyond livid but just want to sanity check, before i approach the tradesman suggesting the doors are replaced and fitting charges refunded that I'm not being unreasonable here?

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My only question is how did he get beyond the first thing he did. If I had seen one hinge or lock done to that standard the guy would have been out on his ear. I am assuming you weren't there to keep an eye on him.

 

[Bingy man]

Trouble is how many tradespeople would be comfortable w someone standing over them and criticising them the moment they lift a chisel, it never bothered me as I was often working in the lounge servicing a back boiler and fire with the customer nearby. You would soon find out how well it was done the year before by the comments - he didn’t remove that last year or worse - he just looked at it and said it was fine. Then there was the faults that were missed-from gas leaks to damaged flues and of course blocked air vents . I also got checked regularly by the safety inspectors so I just got into the habit of working as though one of them was watching me . Thing is the only time I would object is being questioned by a customer who was not qualified or had no knowledge of gas installation/ service other than what they had gained from utube etc .it’s all about pride , trust and integrity-if you have these then you will do the job to a high standard . Yesterday I removed a section of flooring that was uneven and extremely noisy and it squeaked loudly. I expected it to be heating/ plumbing pipes but no - additional joists had been added for what ever reason but they were higher than the existing joists..

 

[Fergie 307]

Oh I entirely agree when it comes to fitting or servicing a boiler or similar. But with fitting a lock or hinge you hardly need to be a cabinet maker to see that that is a lash up. I rarely use tradesmen as I can do most stuff myself. If I get someone in and haven't used them before then I will have a close look at what they are doing, in my experience the ones that are good don't mind at all, presumably because they are confident you aren't going to see anything you don't like. Usually it's apparent within minutes whether you have a good or a bad un. I did once have to show a plasterer the door. My usual guy, who has done all my plastering for 30 years had had an accident. I got someone else in, highly recommended by a friend. It was a disaster, he seemed to have missed the concept that the majority of the plaster was supposed to end up on the wall, rather than every surrounding surface, or that the end result was supposed to be flat and smooth. Ended up paying him for his time so far and asking him to leave. Not a happy bunny but settled down when I suggested that I could always post some pictures of his work on line, so prospective customers could see what they might be letting themselves in for. Only found out later that the recommended one was actually dad, and I had got the son who had taken over when he retired. Ended up waiting for the usual guy to get better, and in due course got the expected super finish, and so little mess that if it wasn't for the new plaster on the walls you wouldn't know he'd been there.

 

[Bingy man]

Maybe I should of said that in my case as a gas engineer trained via city and guilds then the modern day nvq,s etc that was my bread and butter-but my point is any other type of work I do eg carpentry, heavy landscaping, fencing,a new kitchen or bathroom it’s done with the same level of commitment and if I can’t achieve this I won’t take the job on . I have no formal training in any other trade than plumbing and gas installations. Just like those doors I would not of done that bad a job .I once watched a mate fit a mortise lock with a hammer and screwdriver- it was agony watching him hack away without a care in the world. He was moaning all the way through the job and then gave up huffing and puffing and swearing profusely. My point is some so called trade’s haven’t got a clue but they will talk the talk and convince you they are genuine but don’t care , in his eyes the door was attached to the frame , closed and could be opened up again. In his world massive amounts of filler and any other obvious mistakes are completely acceptable because he is making money and that’s what motivates him . Whereas I want you to appreciate the effort I’ve put in to deliver a quality job , I want your friends and family to see it and ask for my number , I want you to call me again for other work and recommend me . Now that’s what I thought checkatrade and the likes were for - to protect the customer from shoddy work and poor quality work. What ever happened to trading standards…

 

[thetyreman]

tradesmen should read more books on old joinery imo, I really think although controversial tests need to be made to keep them in the trade, there is no other way to stop shoddy awful work, when you are motivated by money and not skill then that's where it goes wrong, you should be striving to become a better craftsman or woman all the time, paid or unpaid, most of them seem to be in it for the wrong reasons.

 

[Bingy man]

tradesmen should read more books on old joinery imo, I really think although controversial tests need to be made to keep them in the trade, there is no other way to stop shoddy awful work, when you are motivated by money and not skill then that's where it goes wrong, you should be striving to become a better craftsman or woman all the time, paid or unpaid, most of them seem to be in it for the wrong reasons.

Absolutely 100 % agree . When I was a young one I’d approach builders for work and offer the my labour for free fir one day and if I was any good then we could talk money . It never failed and ok it was only labouring and mixing concrete and cement and ripping out but it was honest and it was a few ££ in my pocket.