Upgrade of my chisels

[D_W]

Thank you David, we have discussed this earlier, but I was also interested in how they compare to the standard Premium line of Narex chisels, that is why I asked, if Richters are worth paying more. I would like to buy only 1/4, 3/8 and 1 chisels now (1/2 is out of stock) and I will buy others later if needed. At the same price point, there are also Pfeil, MHG, and Two Cherries chisels, I do not know if those brands are any better than Richters.

I do not want to buy a set, as I do not need both 3/4 and 1 chisel and maybe I would not need 5/8 or 1/2 chisel.

The key to telling if the premiums are any better than the standard line is the hardness spec. If they say they're 59 hardness, then they are almost certainly going to be austempered process instead of regular process. Austempering would make a good crow bar. You'd rather have standard process in a chisel.

I had the pfeil chisels, they were also good. I had only one experience with MHG mortise chisels eons ago and they weren't that great - they spec 61 hardness, there's no way the ones I had were that hard, but I haven't ever looked to see if anyone tested them with a lab quality hardness tester like a versitron.

Two cherries also behaved lower than their hardness spec (I had the hirsch labeled version) and later the WBW chisel test showed them to be well below 61. there's no guarantee that stuff doesn't change over time, but if you find chisels that roll on the edge and leave you feeling a burr when they feel dull, they're probably not 61 hardness.

if anyone says that there's little difference between a 58 hardness chisel and one at 62, they have no clue what they're talking about.

 

[D_W]

They have octagonal elm handles. How does elm compare to hornbeam or ash, that is commonly used for handles? They have no metal ring, so I do not know if they can withstand heavier blows (information for David , 60 HRC,CrV steel)
View attachment 140238

On a whim, I bought the set of those and later resold them (they were on sale). their spec is probably accurate. they're not overwhelming, but they're not underwhelming either.

 

[tibi]

The key to telling if the premiums are any better than the standard line is the hardness spec. If they say they're 59 hardness, then they are almost certainly going to be austempered process instead of regular process. Austempering would make a good crow bar. You'd rather have standard process in a chisel.

I had the pfeil chisels, they were also good. I had only one experience with MHG mortise chisels eons ago and they weren't that great - they spec 61 hardness, there's no way the ones I had were that hard, but I haven't ever looked to see if anyone tested them with a lab quality hardness tester like a versitron.

Two cherries also behaved lower than their hardness spec (I had the hirsch labeled version) and later the WBW chisel test showed them to be well below 61. there's no guarantee that stuff doesn't change over time, but if you find chisels that roll on the edge and leave you feeling a burr when they feel dull, they're probably not 61 hardness.

if anyone says that there's little difference between a 58 hardness chisel and one at 62, they have no clue what they're talking about.

So I deduct that your advice is to buy the Richters, opposed to Pfeil?

 

[D_W]

So I deduct that your advice is to buy the Richters, opposed to Pfeil?

They're both good enough for fine work. I'm way in the trenches really needling through steel and can make a chisel probably as good as anything (that wasn't true a year ago, but it is now), and probably better than anything retailed.

What really makes the sweetest working chisels is high edge strength (high hardness), plain steel and just enough toughness not to chip.

What I'm getting at is I haven't used the richters, but if they are actually 63 hardness on a regular basis, people are going to like them a little better than the pfeils.

The whole unicorn thing makes it so that when it really comes down to it, you could work rosewood with $10 chisels without the work suffering.

So, actual experience with the pfeils - they're good. They're not matching the better mid to late 1800s chisels good, but they're good. I can compare that only to the richter specs, but the specs appear to be a little better, and I'm neutral on chisel bevels because I will regrind anything without much concern. If you like the shape of one much better than the others, go by the shape. If you're neutral, I'd take richters even odds, and if I didn't have a choice and someone told me I could only use the pfiels, I'd learn to use them just the way they liked and never suffer a thing.

 

[tibi]

They're both good enough for fine work. I'm way in the trenches really needling through steel and can make a chisel probably as good as anything (that wasn't true a year ago, but it is now), and probably better than anything retailed.

What really makes the sweetest working chisels is high edge strength (high hardness), plain steel and just enough toughness not to chip.

What I'm getting at is I haven't used the richters, but if they are actually 63 hardness on a regular basis, people are going to like them a little better than the pfeils.

The whole unicorn thing makes it so that when it really comes down to it, you could work rosewood with $10 chisels without the work suffering.

So, actual experience with the pfeils - they're good. They're not matching the better mid to late 1800s chisels good, but they're good. I can compare that only to the richter specs, but the specs appear to be a little better, and I'm neutral on chisel bevels because I will regrind anything without much concern. If you like the shape of one much better than the others, go by the shape. If you're neutral, I'd take richters even odds, and if I didn't have a choice and someone told me I could only use the pfiels, I'd learn to use them just the way they liked and never suffer a thing.

Thank you David,

So I will not go wrong with either of these. I would consider Richters as I like the handles a little bit more. Although I have seen a negative review, where a side of the chisel broke off. I have never seen anything like this. I know that the sides are narrow, but this should not happen, I will try to make up my mind and decide which one to get.

 

[D_W]

The reason that I didn't just unequivocally say "YESSS" to the richters is because I don't know what they're doing to get to 63.something on a versitron tester.

There are two ways to get that
- push a upper mid carbon steel to its limits, or
- use a highly hardenable steel that will actually land there

There are two that I can think of - bearing steel (52100), but the process to get 52100 to 63+ is maybe something that won't happen in a factory, and 26c3, which is a razor steel made by voestalpine uddeholm. I would bet there are others, like 115crV ("silver steel"), but it's not available in the US for me to give it a whirl.

I can heat treat 26c3 in a garage in a forge (with care and experience) and reach 64 hardness and double the toughness of factory O1, or furnace schedule ideal results, at 62 for the O1. Toughness just means that it would take twice the energy to actually break 26c3 at 64 hardness vs. what it would to break O1 at 62.

I've never seen a defect like that and it may be an artifact of drop forging (which I don't do).

I don't think you'll see that happen with the pfeil chisels, though, and the shape of the pfeil chisels may be slightly more refined. The handles need a little help when you get them.

That said, if there is one chisel with one defect, it's hard to get excited. If you see 10 with the same type of thing, then you start to have a greater chance of seeing it yourself.


I'd love to know what all of the european 60 hardness or so chisels are made of. I suspect it's something like 80crV steel (a 0.8% carbon steel with chromium and vanadium). That's a steel that will land right around 60 in a normal hardening procedure without much chance of remaining brittle. there are a bunch of aspects why 0.8% carbon is easier to deal with than 1%, but I'll spare everyone here if nobody wants to know them. We could all do every bit of woodwork we'll ever see with 80crV. The only thing I could think of where it would come up short anywhere in a house is for razors.

 

[D_W]

By the way, I doubt you'll ever challenge elm handles with any reasonable mallet. The urethane mallets made now have it all over wooden mallets, anyway, and they won't so much as even burnish it. The thing you'll find with the handles, though, is it feels like they did the coarsest grain raising you ever saw, and they're a little crude. But most boutique chisel handles are either crude or weird (short with some step/notch to put your thumb, which is one of the dumbest ideas I've seen with chisels - arthritis inducing if anything).

 

[tibi]

By the way, I doubt you'll ever challenge elm handles with any reasonable mallet. The urethane mallets made now have it all over wooden mallets, anyway, and they won't so much as even burnish it. The thing you'll find with the handles, though, is it feels like they did the coarsest grain raising you ever saw, and they're a little crude. But most boutique chisel handles are either crude or weird (short with some step/notch to put your thumb, which is one of the dumbest ideas I've seen with chisels - arthritis inducing if anything).

I am afraid of the quality control of the Richter chisels, as I have read some more issues, like over polishing the chisels and rounding corners with buffing wheel, as well as out of square bevels (which can be easily corrected, but is expected to be done in the factory) and if they are not too thin to be used with a mallet - I would like to buy dedicated morticing chisels later, but I just ask in case I would use one for morticing as well. I would more trust Swiss chisels in quality control . But I am a bit skeptical about the handles. They indeed look coarse to me. How comfortable and balanced were the Pfeils you had? I am using Thor 712 mallet.

I do not want to destroy the Pfeil handles with the Thor, if I have decided for them.

 

[D_W]

The thor won't pose any problem with them.

the shape of the handles was fine, they were rough and it was a little too tubby. You can take a coarse file or spokeshave or whatever you want and just make the whole handles similar in style but narrower by following the facets if you find the same thing.

I like iles Mk2 of all of the chisels I've used, but the thin ones are needlessly thin and long whereas vintage chisels tended to be either a little shorter or a bit taller in the narrow widths to make up for the lack of width.

so, I can't think of anything, for example, that would be in a class with english chisels made much earlier by marples, ward or IH sorby, etc. Those all got made much more cheaply in later years, so just buying the brand isn't safe, either.

I don't remember any significant buffing on the pfeils - the ones I got did have the lands short all the way down the length of the chisels, which was weird, but no big deal.

They were plenty fat enough in cross section that it doesn't matter, though. If you've seen more than one issue with richters, I'd lean toward the pfeils. Whatever pfeil is using is probably the same steel they've used in everything else for decades, and if it was being pushed to get to hardness, the carving tools would have problems well known as carvers are a lot more particular about staying completely defect free at the edge.

 

[tibi]

The thor won't pose any problem with them.

the shape of the handles was fine, they were rough and it was a little too tubby. You can take a coarse file or spokeshave or whatever you want and just make the whole handles similar in style but narrower by following the facets if you find the same thing.

I like iles Mk2 of all of the chisels I've used, but the thin ones are needlessly thin and long whereas vintage chisels tended to be either a little shorter or a bit taller in the narrow widths to make up for the lack of width.

so, I can't think of anything, for example, that would be in a class with english chisels made much earlier by marples, ward or IH sorby, etc. Those all got made much more cheaply in later years, so just buying the brand isn't safe, either.

I don't remember any significant buffing on the pfeils - the ones I got did have the lands short all the way down the length of the chisels, which was weird, but no big deal.

They were plenty fat enough in cross section that it doesn't matter, though. If you've seen more than one issue with richters, I'd lean toward the pfeils. Whatever pfeil is using is probably the same steel they've used in everything else for decades, and if it was being pushed to get to hardness, the carving tools would have problems well known as carvers are a lot more particular about staying completely defect free at the edge.

Thanks David,

I will lean toward the Pfeils, too. In case I need to polish the handles, I will.

 

[Jacob]

Thanks David,

I will lean toward the Pfeils, too. In case I need to polish the handles, I will.

Just a suggestion - it doesn't do to over-think these things. For most purposes any old chisels will do, they are very simple devices.

 

[tibi]

Just a suggestion - it doesn't do to over-think these things. For most purposes any old chisels will do, they are very simple devices.

I know Jacob, but for me, buying chisels from ebay is cost prohibitive, because I can only buy a set, as I do not want to pay for each individual chisel the shipping costs + VAT as they are often from different vendors. There are sets that can be bought on Ebay, but still the listing price + VAT + shipping is often times much more than the price of a brand new quality set. And you always can get chisels with issues. But generally, you are right, old makers did not ponder as much as we do about their tools. They just bought what was available to them, or in the rare case they had more than one option available, they have bought what their budget allowed them.

These chisels that are currently listed on the main second hand site in Slovakia, so there is not a big selection as in the UK.

 

[Jameshow]

Just a suggestion - it doesn't do to over-think these things. For most purposes any old chisels will do, they are very simple devices.

What it's not my Stanley 5002 that are the problem......?! I've always blamed my tools...!

 

[Jacob]

I know Jacob, but for me, buying chisels from ebay is cost prohibitive, because I can only buy a set, as I do not want to pay for each individual chisel the shipping costs + VAT as they are often from different vendors. There are sets that can be bought on Ebay, but still the listing price + VAT + shipping is often times much more than the price of a brand new quality set. And you always can get chisels with issues. But generally, you are right, old makers did not ponder as much as we do about their tools. They just bought what was available to them, or in the rare case they had more than one option available, they have bought what their budget allowed them.

These chisels that are currently listed on the main second hand site in Slovakia, so there is not a big selection as in the UK.
View attachment 140276

They look OK to me, 3 of them just need new handles!
Riven pieces of ash or almost any hardwood (as per second down) are very easy to do and a neat little exercise in real world woodwork.
Personally I'd much rather be using carefully reclaimed old chisels and just buy the odd replacement when necessary. Not necessarily the same make - there's a tendency for modern woodworkers to think of themselves as working in perfect operating theatres like brain surgeons, with neat arrays of sterilised latest models of matching tools!

 

[tibi]

They look OK to me, 3 of them just need new handles!
Riven pieces of ash or almost any hardwood (as per second down) are very easy to do and a neat little exercise in real world woodwork.
Personally I'd much rather be using carefully reclaimed old chisels and just buy the odd replacement when necessary. Not necessarily the same make - there's a tendency for modern woodworkers to think of themselves as working in perfect operating theatres like brain surgeons, with neat arrays of sterilised latest models of matching tools!

Yes, this is supported by modern youtube culture. If you watch enough home tours of youtubers, where there is curated furniture, with spare decorative items, pastel tone walls, no mess at all.

For example

And then out of the blue, you want to have items (e.g. chisels) match in your workshop and have less clutter, too. It is addictive.

 

[tibi]

And still, the common two-garage wood shop looks like this

 

[hlvd]

Just a suggestion - it doesn't do to over-think these things. For most purposes any old chisels will do, they are very simple devices.

Hallelujah!

 

[tibi]

And still, the common two-garage wood shop looks like this

This is when you are fed up with always lamenting "Only if I had that one extra tool", and you will actually do something about it .... I think there are not many tools in the world, that this guy does not have.

 

[Jameshow]

And still, the common two-garage wood shop looks like this

That's my garage....!

 

[Jacob]

This is when you are fed up with always lamenting "Only if I had that one extra tool", and you will actually do something about it .... I think there are not many tools in the world, that this guy does not have.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returnsThe law of diminishing returns (also known as the law of diminishing marginal productivity) states that the more tools you have the less additionally useful they are.
How it works is that we work with just a small selection, keep the rest in drawers etc and some may never get used at all.